Why Sola Scriptura isn't God's plan

ortho_cat said:

show me some historical/biblical basis that Paul considered what he wrote to be "scripture", and more specifically, that he was including his own writings (or those of anyone else outside of the OT) in his reference to "scripture" in 2 Timothy.

Click to expand...

1 Tim. 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Ox and corn are OT (Deut. 25:4).

Labourer and reward is NT (Luke 10:7).

From there (and Peter, etc), we can pull together pretty much the whole of the NT. For example, if Luke is scripture, then so is Acts.

ortho_cat said:

also note that the above statement (by me) is purely a faith statement based on an "a priori" assumption. I find that many protestants adhere to similar 'faith statements' which have neither historical nor biblical support.

Click to expand...

True. I think it comes from the distaste of of the RCC, but also through that, the doctrine of Christomonism, which due to the misunderstanding and imbalance of the Trinity taught by St. Augustine (this is why we do not rely on one Church Father (Saint)'s teaching or writings, but look at everything as a whole = compare it to other writings from the Saints/CF's, the Scriptures, the councils, creed, etc.), and passed on to the Reformers, who cast out most of the RCC teachings except for the erroneous doctrine of the ransom paid to a wrathful God by punishing His Son in place of the humans by Christ dying for humans, satisfying His wrath and then the adoption of the subordination of the HS through the Augustine theory and which eventually led to Christomonism, because of making Christ more important than the Spirit. With the imbalance of the Trinity, there had to be one authority principle to live by: The Pope, the Bible, or "me."

Hentenza said:

Verse please?


*you knew that was coming*

Click to expand...

That's the point. There is no verse in the Bible that says it's the sole authority. But it is scriptural that the authority was given to His Church. He gave that authority to His Apostles to bind and loose, the keys, etc. It's the pillar of truth and all that jazz.

Hentenza said:

The scriptures have authority over the visible church which is the only way that the church can be the pillar and foundation of truth. Once a local church teaches unbiblically they are no longer the pillar and foundation of truth as has happened historically. "T"radition does not hold the same authority given the multiple variations of "T"radition among visible churches.

Click to expand...

I pray folks let that sink in.

Some groups use that Timothy verse in order to make up truth, teaching I am the Church and whatever I say is the truth. The verse, however, is as you read. The Church supports the Truth, it is not the Truth necessarily or by definition.

Hentenza said:

The bible doesn't have a "proper" place in Holy Tradition, it transcends it. Only the bible is the authority. You have a misunderstanding regarding the relationship between scriptures and tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition as long as it is biblical. When traditions deviate, as they have, then they are to be discarded. Jesus tried to teach the Pharisees that since tradition is easily corrupted.

Click to expand...

This is a misunderstanding and not what was taught from the very beginning. This belief that the bible is the sole authority is a teaching adopted from the Reformer teachers after casting aside the RCC doctrines, adopted the Augustinian understanding of the imbalanced view of the Trinity, which was this way: Father ----------HS----------- Son = that the Holy Spirit was merely the divine love shared between the Father and the Son (originally to combat arianism, but unfortunately was kept in the RCC as not a dogma but an acceptable teaching and adopted by the Protestant churches). Thus, through this imbalanced and incorrect view of subordination of the Holy Spirit -- making Him a bit lesser than Christ, Christ became the most important of the Trinity, the one that was the focal point for all prayer, all thoughts of God. This may lead back to the incorrect teaching on the Original Sin, doctrine of atonement, etc. also originally put in place by the RCC and adopted by the Reformers and subsequent Protestants to this day.

So, as I said in the other post. Because of this imbalance, there had to be a principle authority: the Pope, the bible, or "me." But God never led His people in this type of fashion. He did not set up His Church this way, but through the whole Body - conciliar. His Spirit leads the Church.

Hentenza said:

The scriptures have authority over the visible church which is the only way that the church can be the pillar and foundation of truth. Once a local church teaches unbiblically they are no longer the pillar and foundation of truth as has happened historically. "T"radition does not hold the same authority given the multiple variations of "T"radition among visible churches.

Click to expand...

If that is true, like I said earlier, you need to rip out the table of contexts of the NT. And the problem is you don't read the bible with any apostolic church foundation. And thus your interpretation is up to grabs just as much as the JWs, the Arians, the Gnostics, or Mormons is.

Do you have any scripture that says that scripture has higher authority than the Church? If the Church is the foundation of truth as 1 Timothy 3:15 says, then the inspired scriptures have great relevance to that foundation.

You talk as if the NT existed before the Church. It doesn't work that way. If oral tradition did not have as much authority as the scriptures, then there is no way the canon would have been proposed and there is no way the ancient fathers would have been able to choose which books were inspired and which were not.

The NT wasn't being written till a few decades after Christs death. The 7 Churchs in Lydia, such as Smyrna and Pergenum did not have barely any scriptures to go by and had to rely mostly on oral preaching by apostles or disciples sent by them. There is no way the early Churches would have learned anything following your model considering they didn't have any compiled bibles to go by.

Dorothea said:

That's the point. There is no verse in the Bible that says it's the sole authority. But it is scriptural that the authority was given to His Church. He gave that authority to His Apostles to bind and loose, the keys, etc. It's the pillar of truth and all that jazz.

Click to expand...

What about the singular key

http://www.christianforums.com/t7287910/#post55520274

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
("key")
occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the KJV

Isaiah 22:22 And I give Key of house of David on shoulder-blade of Him,
and He opens and no one is locking and He locks and is no one opening.
[Reve 3:7]

Reve 3:7 And to the Messenger of the in filadelfeia out-called write!
Now-this is saying the Holy, the True, the One-having the Key of David, the one opening and no one shall be *locking and locking and no-one is opening.
[Isaiah 22:22]

Standing Up said:

Jesus has the keys (Rev. 1:18). He opened the gates (Mt. 27:53). The gates do not prevail, regardless of our faithfulness or lack thereof, because of His finished work (Jn. 19:30). I believe that.

Click to expand...

He gave the keys to His Apostles. He entrusted His Apostles to carry on His teachings to the Church put together and created by God, just as He put together the people of Israel through the seed of Abraham.

John, Chap. 17: I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine and I am glorified in them. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your Truth. Your Word is Truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word. That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I in You. That they also may be one in us. That the world may believe that You sent Me. I in them and You in Me, that they may be made perfectly one and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.'

excerpt from lecture on the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church

When we examine this phrase, the word we have to look at first is Church and then go back to these four characteristics or marks of the Church. What is the origin of this word - Church? We need to know from the Greek - Ecclesia - EK = from, and Kaleo = called out. To be called out from. So those who are part of what is called the Church (Ecclesia) - and of course we're using it not in the sense of the Church building - we speak of the Church building referring to the Church in the secondary sense. But when we speak of the Church, we are speaking of those human beings who comprise this society, which we are going to see is not merely a human community - what makes it be what it is - what gives it its essence is that it is the people, the assembly that have been called out of this world, called to a higher state of existence by God Who has made such a thing possible by everything we have described in the Creed up to this point. So this society, this body that we call the Church, the first of its characteristics is that it is a visible body. It has a real, concrete existence. There is nothing vague about it. Perhaps the best comparison to use so that we can understand this teaching about the visibility of the Church - its existence throughout time and history is to look at the Old Covenant and to realize that to be a member of God's people, the people that He had called to Himself in the Old Covenant was a very clear thing - you were either part of Israel or you weren't part of Israel. You were part of Israel if you were born of the seed of Abraham - if you were born of a woman descended from Abraham, and if you were a male bearing the mark of circumcision on your body. All of these are very organic, visible things, and all of that visibility of the people of the Old Covenant goes along with the promise that we mentioned.

I think in our first session - that it is to the chosen people that God promises that in the seed of Abraham, all the nations of the earth will be blessed. So it's very easy to know whether one was a member of the Old Covenant community - the chosen people. It was whether or not one was descended from Abraham.

Now in the New Covenant with Christ, the faith of the Church is that from the beginning - from Christ and the Apostles, the Lord's Will - the purpose of the Lord's coming was that He was going and has given this new life that He has made possible - and when we use that expression 'new life,' we have to use it in the most intense sense possible - that it is really a new creation that we are talking about when we speak of the new humanity. That if there is an immeasurable difference between a member of the human race and a creature of the animal kingdom, we would go as far as to say that there is also an immeasurable difference between a member of the human race, an ordinary human being in the image and likeness of God and a member of the people of God - those whom He has called and whom have responded to that invitation to become part of His new creation. It's not just a little window dressing that's been added to the New Covenant people. If anyone is in Christ, the Scripture says, he is a new creation The old order has passed away and everything is new.

So the language that the Scriptures and the tradition of the Church uses from the beginning to refer to the Church is a very concrete language. The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the head and those who are part of His Body are the members. When we spoke of the ascension of Christ, the Church experiences - where Christ is, there His Body is present also. Christ, the Head, is in Heaven, and the members of His Body are already mystically present in Heaven with Him. As we live time on earth so Christ is present with us until the end of the world. So if we are going to speak of the Church as the Body of Christ or as the Bride of Christ, and that Bridal marriage, nuptial imagery, to refer to the people of God, is consistent both in the OT and the NT, continually through the prophetic writings in the OT - Israel is spoken of as the Bride of God, and when the relationship between God and Israel is threatened because of Israel's unfaithfulness and idolatry - and that's, of course the amazing thing about the history of Israel - that from the beginning to the end, the relationship is always threatened by infidelity - God says that no matter how unfaithful His people are, no matter how many of them will be lost due to their infidelity, God will never cast off His people. God remains married to His people as a bridegroom to bride."

"So, if that image holds for the Old Covenant for God and Israel, it is brought to an indescribably higher level in the New Covenant when in the Church - of course we have that wonderful passage in the epistle of the Ephesians, Ch 5, that is read at every Orthodox marriage, 'The husband is head of the wife, so also Christ is head of the Church, for He is the savior of the body. Therefore, just as the Church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy without blemish. No one ever hated his own flesh but nourishes it and cherishes it just as the Lord does the Church. For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, and of His Bones' - again a very physical, real, organic expression, 'this is a great mystery,' St. Paul says, 'but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.'

So if the bridegroom of the Church and the head of the Body - if those expressions do not refer to any kind of vague idea. See they refer to the Person of the incarnate Lord, Jesus Christ. Likewise, the members of the Body and the Bridegroom of the Bride refer something that is very, very visible, not vague - see we have to be very careful here because there are many people who are influenced in one way or another by the Reformation idea of - comes from one part of the Reformation - that the Church is invisible, that the Church is somehow the gathering that won't really be clear who's in it until we are in heaven. It is comprised of all those who believe in and love Jesus, who have this individual or private relationship with Him and that's the Church, and you can't tell by looking around who's really in it. Well, the teaching of the Church from the beginning - and later on we are going to see how the testimony not only in the Scriptures, but in the teachers of the Church who bear witness to this - is that the Church in this world is very visible, has very real boundaries, that you're either in it or you're not in it, just as for the Old Covenant. You were either of the seed of Abraham or you were not. So, likewise, in the New Covenant, in the new people that have been called by God to comprise the new creation, the new humanity, the same rule also holds - that just as Christ called real people to Himself, the Apostles, and through the Apostles, established the Church on their foundation, so throughout time until the end of time, through human history, the Church exists in this world as a visible body - a visible bride for Christ, the bridegroom.

The Church is comprised of those who confess the teachings and the life of the Church that have been held from the beginning everywhere by everyone who have claimed to be the Church, who partake of the life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that has been made present in the Church through the channels we call the sacraments. That's what makes you a member of the Church. Nothing else. No kind of idea, no kind of individualized conviction, no kind of privatized act of faith. These things may all have their place, but what makes a person a member of the Body, a member of the family of God that we call the one Church is if one confesses the life and doctrine of the Church and partakes of the life that is made present to her by the Holy Trinity in the sacraments.

***St. Iraneus of Lyons, whom I've mentioned a number of times before - he's third generation - knew those who knew the Apostles - writes, 'Where the Church is, there also is the Spirit of God. Where the Spirit of God is, there also is the Church and all its grace.'

***St. Cyprian of Carthage, who was a great bishop in the third century, in the city of North Africa, where there was once a great and mighty Church that isn't there anymore at all....I'll mention something on that later - says 'The Church is one' - capital 'c' - 'even though the number of churches' - small 'c' - 'is constantly growing, as the Church' - capital 'c' - 'becomes more fertile. There are many churches' - small 'c' - 'but only one Church.' - and then this statement, I think it's very important for you to take with you this evening from St. Cyprian - 'he cannot have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother.'

It cannot be because how one comes to have God as a father is by adoption. We do not come into this world as children of God. We come into this world as creatures of God. We must be reborn in water and spirit within the Body of those whom God called to Himself from this world within. The early teachers of the Church like to say - God is my Father, the Church is my Mother, the womb I came out of is the baptismal font. See, the breasts that I nurse at are the Holy Eucharist.

***'The Church is greater than heaven and earth,' St. Ambrose of Milan writes in the 5th century. 'It is a new world, and Christ is its sun. Christ is its light.'

***St. Athanasius, 'The Body of Christ, to which Christians are united through baptism, is the source of our resurrection and salvation.' Our resurrection and salvation we do not find by ourselves isolated off in a corner. Rather it is in the Body of Christ that is made the Body of Christ, through the sacraments. This is the source of our resurrection.

***'The Church is the earthly paradise in which the God of heaven dwells' - St. Germanos of Constantinople in the 8th century.

***'The Church is a great window through which the Son of Righteousness shines upon a world of darkness' - St. Nicholas Cabasilas (sp?) in the 14th century.

***'Christ's Church is not an institution' - institution used in the sense of the political or corporate institutions of this world. 'It is new life with Christ, and in Christ, directed by the Holy Spirit.' Fr. Sergius Bulgakov, a 20th century theologian.

***'The Church is the center of the universe. The place where its destiny is made. The place where the destiny of the whole cosmos is revealed, is in the new world of the Church.' - Vladimir Lossky, another 20th century theologian.

***'In the darkness of this fallen world, the Church is an opening in the wall made by the Triumphant Cross. The love of the Trinity never ceases to shine the light of the Resurrection.' - Olivier Clement

***Father Alexander Schmemann - 'The Church is the entrance into the life of Christ.' The communion with eternal life.

The faith is simple. I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. That has endured, regardless of argument over filioque, papacy, mariology, baptism, eucharist, chants, candle colors, or anything else.

Click to expand...

Faith in faith is the immature state in which we all start with. A one time proclamation does not mean salvation. The actualization of Christ's redemptive works for us on the Cross and Resurrection, and our lives living it daily in the community of the Church is what salvation is.

Where we differ is I also believe the warning about a falling away, grievous wolves entering in. We can look at history and see it happened. Some, like RC or EO, do not believe it, thinking they are the true Church, but God gives grace to the humble.

Click to expand...

Yes, I think it's in Hebrews about the warning of man-made doctrines. This is why it's important to cling to His Church because that is the surest way, if one is dedicated to God, in finding ultimate union with Him.

And when people left the communion of the Church, says in lecture:


There are people who are doing what John describes in his first epistle - when he talks about people even then in the first generation of the Church - who are leaving the Church - and he says 'they went out from us because they were not of us.' That's a significant thing to see there because what he's talking about is the Body there. He's not talking about people who weren't members of the Church. He's talking about people who were members of the Church, who were leaving the Church, and he said, well, this does not divide the Church, but rather what is being brought to light here is these people who leave the Church, it's being shown that they are not of the Church."

Dorothea said:

He gave the keys to His Apostles.

Click to expand...

This is an EO and RC teaching? Here's scripture to the contrary.

Rev. 1:18 I [Jesus] am the living one who died. Look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.

Rev. 3:7 "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Philadelphia. This is the message from the one who is holy and true. He [Jesus] is the one who has the key of David. He opens doors, and no one can shut them; he shuts doors, and no one can open them.

So, what keys has He given the apostles?

Mt. 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven."

Peter preached at Pentecost, opening the door to the Jews. Peter preached to Cornelius, opening the door to the Gentiles.

Door is open. Job is done.

-snip-

Click to expand...

The rest of your post stemmed from the idea that the Church holds the keys to death and the grave and the key of David in contradiction to scripture.

ortho_cat said:

Re. 1 Tim. 3:15, I think this is a clear example of eisegesis on the part of the protestant who asserts that the reason the "church is the pillar and foundation of truth" is because it possesses scripture. In other words, it seems to me to be a situation where this idea is being read into the verse.

Click to expand...

Even the ECF's agree with that understanding iirc.

I think it would be much more likely to say that the reason the church is such is because Christ it at the head of it.

Click to expand...

Isn't that what your church teaches?
And do we support God? Are we God's "pillars' and support?
Or the Christ's? Who's the foundation, where is the cornerstone
around here?

We do uphold the Word (as in Scripture) though, that I do know.

Again, this is an example of attempting to limit the "Word of God' to the written text. The Word is a person.

Click to expand...

Not at all. Sometimes the word of God IS in reference to the "written text".
We must rightly divide the "Word of truth"
See?

It's a big deal too, If we LOVE Him.. we'll keep his..........words.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye
hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Originally Posted by Hentenza

Standing Up said:

I pray folks let that sink in.

Some groups use that Timothy verse in order to make up truth, teaching I am the Church and whatever I say is the truth. The verse, however, is as you read. The Church supports the Truth, it is not the Truth necessarily or by definition.

Click to expand...

Bears repeating.

Dorothea said:

And when people left the communion of the Church, says in lecture:


There are people who are doing what John describes in his first epistle - when he talks about people even then in the first generation of the Church - who are leaving the Church - and he says 'they went out from us because they were not of us.' That's a significant thing to see there because what he's talking about is the Body there. He's not talking about people who weren't members of the Church. He's talking about people who were members of the Church, who were leaving the Church, and he said, well, this does not divide the Church, but rather what is being brought to light here is these people who leave the Church, it's being shown that they are not of the Church."

Click to expand...

Would that be considered an "apostasy" as shown in 2 Thess?

G'night all

What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2? - Christian Forums
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G646 matches the Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2 Thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apostasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.
[Acts 21:21]

Standing Up said:

This is an EO and RC teaching? Here's scripture to the contrary.
Rev. 1:18 I [Jesus] am the living one who died. Look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.
Rev. 3:7 "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Philadelphia. This is the message from the one who is holy and true. He [Jesus] is the one who has the key of David. He opens doors, and no one can shut them; he shuts doors, and no one can open them.
So, what keys has He given the apostles?
Mt. 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven."
Peter preached at Pentecost, opening the door to the Jews. Peter preached to Cornelius, opening the door to the Gentiles.
Door is open. Job is done.
The rest of your post stemmed from the idea that the Church holds the keys to death and the grave and the key of David in contradiction to scripture.

Click to expand...

The key powers of binding & loosing in Matt 18 seem to have more to do with social conflicts rather than doctrinal authority.

Rick Otto said:

The key powers of binding & loosing in Matt 18 seem to have more to do with social conflicts rather than doctrinal authority.

Click to expand...

Like Facebook?

Hentenza said:

There is plenty of historical support. The bible itself claims authority.

Click to expand...

Where's it say it's the sole authority?