Why should one care if ''God'' exists?

Deidre32 said:

Not an invisible architect though. lol

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The problem with being Infinite, Eternal, Omnipresent and Almighty is that if you reveal even the tiniest fraction of your real self to an atomic creature without some kind of shielding....that's usually the end of your audience.

Part of the hazards of being God I'd guess...*shrugs*

Usus Vox Tractus said:

The problem with being Infinite, Eternal, Omnipresent and Almighty is that if you reveal even the tiniest fraction of your real self to an atomic creature without some kind of shielding....that's usually the end of your audience.

Part of the hazards of being God I'd guess...*shrugs*

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Why is that?

bhsmte said:

Why is that?

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Because as God is described as the state/being/energy that produced the universe, and God is eternal, then God is not diminished in the creation of the universe...or an infinite and growing multiverse.

So to "open a door" to the Union of God before creation would be like poking a "white-hole" in space-time: An unstoppable outpouring of matter and energy at the speed of light. All consuming fire.

Usus Vox Tractus said:

Because as God is described as the state/being/energy that produced the universe, and God is eternal, then God is not diminished in the creation of the universe...or an infinite and growing multiverse.

So to "open a door" to the Union of God before creation would be like poking a "white-hole" in space-time: An unstoppable outpouring of matter and energy at the speed of light. All consuming fire.

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God as described by whom?

bhsmte said:

God as described by whom?

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The Bible describes God as an all consuming fire, who created the heavens and the earth (presumable everything in between as well), and no man may approach the Creator Father unless sanctified by the son.

The Seraphim one of the highest choirs of angels they each have 6 wings, 2 of which they shield their faces from looking directly upon God's unbearably awesome glory.

Constantly in the OT the Glory of God is said to be veiled or clouded from man.


Islam ascribes every good infinite superlative to Allah, The God. In Mohammad's night journey through the heavens on the back of the lightening horse, he was taken beyond the furthest mosque, beyond the infinite universes, beyond the Great Lote Tree of the final boundary, even their, Allah hid himself from Mohammed. Beyond there, all form is annihilated. Even before there, several high angels said they could go no further or else be annihilated.

In Hinduism, Brahma and Vishnu are arguing before creation, who is the greater God. Suddenly a burning column of fire appears! They split up to find the top and bottom....there is no top or bottom. Then Shiva basically says "I am the only God and you two are my expressions"

Shiva, the ultimate acetic removed from the frippery of the inconsequential world, The destroyer of all falseness and pretentious convention. The destroyer of all that will not stand up in eternity.


The God is Creator, Sustainer, and Destroyer of all time, form and space.

Deidre32 said:

That is by far the coolest argument to support evidence of a god I've heard in a long time. lol (seriously)

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Thanks! I do what I can with what little I have.

Aldebaran said:

There are plenty of "armchair judges" that like to tap away on their keyboards about things they know nothing about, whether it's about politics, war, religion--you name it. Now you want me to be an armchair judge of God Himself and say I'm shutting off my brain if I don't. Wow.

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No, that is not what I am saying. Perhaps you had missed my edit, but I had added the following paragraph:

This isn't like driving a car without understanding the fine points of car engines. You might not be a car mechanic, but presumably with enough training you too would be able to judge the quality of the reasoning of car mechanics.

I'm not saying that you should claim knowledge that you do not have. I'm saying that you should not treat yourself as if you are incapable of judgment. Why do I think you were saying that? It's because you had written:

His reasoning isn't mine to judge.

Perhaps you don't currently have knowledge of God's reasoning, but if you did, it would certainly be yours to judge.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Usus Vox Tractus said:

The Bible describes God as an all consuming fire, who created the heavens and the earth (presumable everything in between as well), and no man may approach the Creator Father unless sanctified by the son.

The Seraphim one of the highest choirs of angels they each have 6 wings, 2 of which they shield their faces from looking directly upon God's unbearably awesome glory.

Constantly in the OT the Glory of God is said to be veiled or clouded from man.


Islam ascribes every good infinite superlative to Allah, The God. In Mohammad's night journey through the heavens on the back of the lightening horse, he was taken beyond the furthest mosque, beyond the infinite universes, beyond the Great Lote Tree of the final boundary, even their, Allah hid himself from Mohammed. Beyond there, all form is annihilated. Even before there, several high angels said they could go no further or else be annihilated.

In Hinduism, Brahma and Vishnu are arguing before creation, who is the greater God. Suddenly a burning column of fire appears! They split up to find the top and bottom....there is no top or bottom. Then Shiva basically says "I am the only God and you two are my expressions"

Shiva, the ultimate acetic removed from the frippery of the inconsequential world, The destroyer of all falseness and pretentious convention. The destroyer of all that will not stand up in eternity.


The God is Creator, Sustainer, and Destroyer of all time, form and space.

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How much credence do you place on the biblical description of God, considering it was written by men (many of whom are anonymous) and the book has been shown to be a little dicey in many areas?

bhsmte said:

How much credence do you place on the biblical description of God, considering it was written by men (many of whom are anonymous) and the book has been shown to be a little dicey in many areas?

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I was brought up in the military and ended up spending high school in Michigan. My mother made me go to a church where I use to look out on the winter Michigan tundra and wonder what was more dead and lifeless, the outside or the church I was in. I would also go outside to smoke a cigarette and wonder how on earth there could be a God with an ice cold wind blowing.

I believe that everything came together with energy and light and that there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2... The sun is E/c2 in the form of plasma... The Earth is cooled E/c2.
Mental E/c2... Our ability to think comes from E/c2
Spiritual E/c2... Energy (Motivation, Warmth, Love) / c2 (Faith, Hope, Charity, Joy)

so... Lets take the opposite of all that...

The opposite of m = E/c2 is n = z/d

Nothing (n) - That which outer space is made of between the celestial objects.
Absolute Zero (z) - The coldest it can get!
Darkness (d) - That which is devoid of light.

Natural z/d - Nothing! Space! Null and Void!
Mental z/d - Nothing!
Spiritual... z (Laziness, Cold, Apathy, Hate) / d (Fear, Despair, Greed, Sorrow).

It is my conviction that there are three spiritual extremes…

Spiritual light – Love, warmth, faith, hope, charity joy, goodness, peace…
Spiritual darkness – Hate, cold, fear, depression, sorrow, greed, evil, war…
The Flesh – Ego, perverted sex, filth, witchcraft, anger, strife, divisions, mysticism… Where does that fit? It is neither light or darkness!

I have heard that the flesh and the devil are so akin that it is hard to discern between the two of them. There is a path I believe to perfect spiritual light, or Caritas (Latin for pure love)... Things that cannot be taught for virtue is not knowledge!

1. Hope - All things begin with a hope
2. Faith - Motivation is a child of faith and hope
3. Charis - Grace - A powerful neighbor of caritas
4. Dynamos - Greek for virtue and motivation
5. Eucharisteo - Much grace... Gratitude
6. Charisomai - Well favored - A lucky kind of feeling
7. Euchrestos - Greek for profitable
8. Chairo - Greek for cheer - "Cheerio mate!"
9. Chara - Greek for joy
10. Chrestotes - An 'Aunt Bee' kind of Goodness
11. Charisma - Heavenly Graciousness
12. Chrisma - Heavenly Anointing - The Holy Grail!

Finally I came to God because I met him on a spiritual basis and by seeing its effects as on the individual below... The older gentlemen in the Pentecostal Holiness church would sit on the front pew weeping as the Holy Spirit would fall. And if they ever made eye contact with you they would point to the altar, as souls were being laid out in the spirit, and declare, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!"


After experiencing a revival one late summer, I felt a voice speak to my heart as I lay there listening to the kady dids sing outside the door. The voice said, "Put the book down" in which on doing so the voice speaks again... "Where is all that hatred and strife?" On examining my spiritual man there was noting there but pure beauty. A well of spiritual E/c2 flowing out from my inside spiritual man.

From that point on I took an interest in the word of God. But it was not the word of God that saved or converted me, but a God encounter that changed the spiritual man.

So I do not believe that we can penetrate the atheist mind on these issues. They will be converted if they feel God's Spirit enter their heart. They will take interest in the word of God because that is where God's Spirit will lead them. I doubt no intellectual argument will do it.

rockytopva said:

I was brought up in the military and ended up spending high school in Michigan. My mother made me go to a church where I use to look out on the winter Michigan tundra and wonder what was more dead and lifeless, the outside or the church I was in. I would also go outside to smoke a cigarette and wonder how on earth there could be a God with an ice cold wind blowing.

I believe that everything came together with energy and light and that there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2... The sun is E/c2 in the form of plasma... The Earth is cooled E/c2.
Mental E/c2... Our ability to think comes from E/c2
Spiritual E/c2... Energy (Motivation, Love) / c2 (Faith, Hope, Charity, Joy)

so... Lets take the opposite of all that...

The opposite of m = E/c2 is n = z/d

Nothing (n) - That which outer space is made of between the celestial objects.
Absolute Zero (z) - The coldest it can get!
Darkness (d) - That which is devoid of light.

Natural z/d - Nothing! Space! Null and Void!
Mental z/d - Nothing!
Spiritual... z (Laziness, Apathy, Hate) / d (Fear, Despair, Greed, Sorrow).

It is my conviction that there are three spiritual extremes…

Spiritual light – Love, warmth, faith, hope, charity joy, goodness, peace…
Spiritual darkness – Hate, cold, fear, depression, sorrow, greed, evil, war…
The Flesh – Ego, perverted sex, filth, witchcraft, anger, strife, divisions, mysticism… Where does that fit? It is neither light or darkness!

I have heard that the flesh and the devil are so akin that it is hard to discern between the two of them. There is a path I believe to perfect spiritual light, or Caritas (Latin for pure love)... Things that cannot be taught for virtue is not knowledge!

1. Hope - All things begin with a hope
2. Faith - Motivation is a child of faith and hope
3. Charis - Grace - A powerful neighbor of caritas
4. Dynamos - Greek for virtue and motivation
5. Eucharisteo - Much grace... Gratitude
6. Charisomai - Well favored - A lucky kind of feeling
7. Euchrestos - Greek for profitable
8. Chairo - Greek for cheer - "Cheerio mate!"
9. Chara - Greek for joy
10. Chrestotes - An 'Aunt Bee' kind of Goodness
11. Charisma - Heavenly Graciousness
12. Chrisma - Heavenly Anointing - The Holy Grail!

Finally I came to God because I met him on a spiritual basis and by seeing its effects as on the individual below... The older gentlemen in the Pentecostal Holiness church would sit on the front pew weeping as the Holy Spirit would fall. And if they ever made eye contact with you they would point to the altar, as souls were being laid out in the spirit, and declare, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!"


After experiencing a revival one late summer, I felt a voice speak to my heart as I lay there listening to the kady dids sing outside the door. The voice said, "Put the book down" in which on doing so the voice speaks again... "Where is all that hatred and strife?" On examining my spiritual man there was noting there but pure beauty. A well of spiritual E/c2 flowing out from my inside spiritual man.

From that point on I took an interest in the word of God. But it was not the word of God that saved or converted me, but a God encounter that changed the spiritual man.

So I do not believe that we can penetrate the atheist mind on these issues. They will be converted if they feel God's Spirit enter their heart. They will take interest in the word of God because that is where God's Spirit will lead them. I doubt no intellectual argument will do it.

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Well, intellectual and logical arguments for a God don't tend to hold up well to scrutiny so your are right, those don't work real well.

Which is why, belief in a God requires faith and likely a certain psychology that needs that faith and allows it to take effect. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the person with the faith, treats others who disagree with them with respect and their faith does not require them to deny reality in holding onto it.

bhsmte said:

How much credence do you place on the biblical description of God, considering it was written by men (many of whom are anonymous) and the book has been shown to be a little dicey in many areas?

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As about as much credit as a giant conglomerate rock: There is gold ore, several rough gems, usable tool iron but you have to work for all of it......there is also all the coprolite one could desire to throw. Maybe it was designed that way?


I have found many many roots to the trunk of the bible, hidden under the visible, literal surface. It did not arise in a vacuum. Many "truths" espoused by the bible have been asserted by man long before.

For instance: Egyptian creation texts repeatedly stress the belief of creation by the Word. When nothing existed except the One, he created the universe with his commanding voice. The Egyptian Book of the Coming Forth by Light (wrongly and commonly translated as the Book of the Dead), the oldest written text in the world, states:

I am the Eternal ... I am that which created the Word ... I am the Word ...




Sound familiar?


Through my own works I have found that if the story of Jesus is 100% historically accurate, then it is a reoccurrence of universal relationships.

If the Jesus story is 100% allegory, it is a retelling of universal relationships.


If the bible is an allegorical retelling designed to hide universal truth I would firmly expect there to be many stumbling blocks for the shallow minded and coded puzzles for the knowing seeker.

Even if it is 100% "authentic", man has obviously dickered with it through time adjusting skewing word meanings and even making up Lucifer out of the wild blue. Nothing that can't be researched enough to peer thoroughly the glass, however darkly.


My mind is like a crosscut paper shredder and alchemical chamber.....all texts share the same fate.


All books can only ever function as maps, some with greater detail, some with less.....but never mistake a map for the territory.


And once you know the territory by heart? You could write a "bible".




....that's all I have to say about that...

bhsmte said:

Well, intellectual and logical arguments for a God don't tend to hold up well to scrutiny so your are right, those don't work real well.

Which is why, belief in a God requires faith and likely a certain psychology that needs that faith and allows it to take effect. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the person with the faith, treats others who disagree with them with respect and their faith does not require them to deny reality in holding onto it.

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According to the bible, faith is a gift from God, not something man creates of himself.

So "just have faith" is a functionless, ignorant statement.


Faith is an evolution of belief: From thinking something is true, to knowing something is true by direct revelation from God. That is why faith has an Author.

Everyone trying to believe so hard until their "faith" becomes a fortress is doing it wrong. If a person is "defending their faith" they are worshipping a god of fortresses.

Usus Vox Tractus said:

According to the bible, faith is a gift from God, not something man creates of himself.

So "just have faith" is a functionless, ignorant statement.


Faith is an evolution of belief: From thinking something is true, to knowing something is true by direct revelation from God. That is why faith has an Author.

Everyone trying to believe so hard until their "faith" becomes a fortress is doing it wrong. If a person is "defending their faith" they are worshipping a god of fortresses.

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Yes, the bible says a lot of things.

If you have faith in it, then what it says would be important to you.

bhsmte said:

Yes, the bible says a lot of things.

If you have faith in it, then what it says would be important to you.

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I don't have "faith" in the bible. I believe it to be a coded collection of cyphers mixed with history and allegory. A literary rubix cube.

I have faith in God because I experienced the reality of God for about as long as my soul could withstand the exposure. Just long enough to burn several crusty layers away without reducing me to ash.

Usus Vox Tractus said:

I don't have "faith" in the bible. I believe it to be a coded collection of cyphers mixed with history and allegory. A literary rubix cube.

I have faith in God because I experienced the reality of God for about as long as my soul could withstand the exposure. Just long enough to burn several crusty layers away without reducing me to ash.

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Well, you started your last post with:

"According to the bible, faith is a gift from God"

I would take that to mean, you must have some faith in the bible.

Usus Vox Tractus said:

I don't have "faith" in the bible. I believe it to be a coded collection of cyphers mixed with history and allegory. A literary rubix cube.

I have faith in God because I experienced the reality of God for about as long as my soul could withstand the exposure. Just long enough to burn several crusty layers away without reducing me to ash.

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to bad we don't all experience god

bhsmte said:

Well, you started your last post with:

"According to the bible, faith is a gift from God"

I would take that to mean, you must have some faith in the bible.

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No, I believe that part because I have experienced it as a reality....I have faith in the Reality.

Biblical definition of faith: Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

The "hoped for" part is belief. The substance and evidence is confirmation of belief, aka proof, aka knowledge by direct experience.

fireof god98 said:

to bad we don't all experience god

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Too bad we all don't fast from the world and go into the woods to wrestle ourselves for long enough and pray for the experience. That's what we all did back in the Day.