Why religion cannot make its mind up about nudity

soldier of light said:

I struggled with lust myself so how can I look down on anyone?

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That's what I've been asking all along.

partinobodycular said:

That's what I've been asking all along.

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I'm not looking down on anyone. I took the log from my eye and I'm trying to help people like me see.

soldier of light said:

I took the log from my eye and I'm trying to help people like me see.

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I do believe that you still have a few splinters left. The ones that cause you to judge others, rather than love others.

When I was younger I had the privilege of ministering to the homeless. One learns very quickly to set aside their supposed flaws, and focus on what's important... attending to the human being on the inside. Overlook the outside... and all the things that offend you, and focus instead on that spark of humanity that still lives on the inside.

If you spend all your time preaching about what's on the outside, as if it's of some ungodly importance, then you're never gonna get to touch the inside.

Focus on what's important... love thy neighbor.

partinobodycular said:

I do believe that you still have a few splinters left. The ones that cause you to judge others, rather than love others.

When I was younger I had the privilege of ministering to the homeless. One learns very quickly to set aside their supposed flaws, and focus on what's important... attending to the human being on the inside. Overlook the outside... and all the things that offend you, and focus instead on that spark of humanity that still lives on the inside.

If you spend all your time preaching about what's on the outside, as if it's of some ungodly importance, then you're never gonna get to touch the inside.

Focus on what's important... love thy neighbor.

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I cant love my neighbor unless I love God because its God who teaches us love. The scripture says that we are God's temple and the body is not for fornication. If we men and women are lusting after each other, then we are not a holy temple. That's fornication and adultery. Jesus said just looking at a woman with lust is adultery. I dont think holy men and women should dress with lust in mind but should cover themselves in holiness.

partinobodycular said:

If you spend all your time preaching about what's on the outside, as if it's of some ungodly importance, then you're never gonna get to touch the inside.

Focus on what's important... love thy neighbor.

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Lust comes from the heart. Jesus said so. It's on the inside.

soldier of light said:

Lust comes from the heart. Jesus said so. It's on the inside.

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I suggest that you spend some time ministering to the homeless. The harlots, the drunkards, and the drug addicts. To them you're just a bag of hot air, and unfortunately, I'm sorry to say, I think that that's what you are to God too. But I've got hope, you're still young. In the meantime I'll do me, and you do you... if you have a problem with that, well, I don't really care.

If on the other hand you're right, then somehow, some way, you have to make me care, and preaching isn't gonna do it.

soldier of light said:

I cant love my neighbor unless I love God because its God who teaches us love.

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Ah, you don't get it, loving God and loving thy neighbor are the same thing.

partinobodycular said:

I suggest that you spend some time ministering to the homeless. The harlots, the drunkards, and the drug addicts. To them you're just a bag of hot air, and unfortunately, I'm sorry to say, I think that that's what you are to God too. But I've got hope, you're still young. In the meantime I'll do me, and you do you... if you have a problem with that, well, I don't really care.

If on the other hand you're right, then somehow, some way, you have to make me care, and preaching isn't gonna do it.

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I would love to minister to the homeless because I understand them in my opinion because of my own experience with mental illness. I could easily be them myself. But right now I'm ministering to people online. I share my struggle to give people like me hope and the path that I took. You seem to believe that lust is ok as long as you feed the homeless.

partinobodycular said:

Ah, you don't get it, loving God and loving thy neighbor are the same thing.

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Loving God means forsaking our lust and putting on a Godly mind. We love God with our mind, strength, soul and heart by obeying him. We are his holy temple. Whoever destroys God's temple will be destroyed as Paul said

partinobodycular said:

Ah, you don't get it, loving God and loving thy neighbor are the same thing.

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Scripture said we are born of God of we obey Him. John teaches that lust is the sin. The lust of the flesh and eyes and pride is the sin. Why are you suggesting that it's not sin?

soldier of light said:

You seem to believe that lust is ok as long as you feed the homeless.

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No, the two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Lust is simply a God given predisposition, that like anything else can be abused. Surprise, surprise. Like claiming to be celibate for gosh sakes, what the heck do we care. If its a choice that was made between you and God then keep it that way. But to proclaim it to us as if it somehow makes you holy, is to sully the whole point of making the vow in the first place. God may have cared, until you started waving it around like some banner of righteousness. It seems to me as if you've just gone from fixating on one thing (lust) to fixating on another thing (celibacy).

I realize that that's probably not the case, but that's just how it seems to me.

soldier of light said:

We love God with our mind, strength, soul and heart by obeying him.

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And what did He command you to do, but to love thy neighbor. 'For whatsoever you do unto the least of these my brethren, you do unto me'. So loving God and loving your neighbor are inseparable. To do one is to do the other. So it seems pretty simple to me... love thy neighbor. If I was gonna preach about anything, that would probably be it, and I'd leave the whole judgment and condemnation thing to somebody else. There's a reason why Christ said that all the laws and all the prophets hang on those two commandments.

soldier of light said:

John teaches that lust is the sin. The lust of the flesh and eyes and pride is the sin. Why are you suggesting that it's not sin?

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Sorry, but I have to disagree, you've fallen into a common misunderstanding of the text. John is writing to the church, and he's differentiating them from 'the world'. In this case 'the world" doesn't equate to absolutely everybody else. It equates to those who have fallen in love with the things of the world to such an extent that they've placed their entire sense of self-fulfillment in the acquiring those things.

For example, you can desire nice stuff. Like clothes, and iPhones, and new cars, but desiring stuff doesn't become a 'sin' until possessing it begins to take preference over everything else, such that your entire worldview becomes centered around 'getting stuff', and all other human aspirations for self-fulfillment fall by the wayside. And that includes loving God, and loving your neighbor. Up until then it's just the natural human proclivity to want stuff, and wanting stuff isn't a sin.

In the same manner 'lust' isn't a sin either. It's just that in our hyper-religious culture we've come to believe that any attraction to the opposite sex is sinful... and so we refer to it as "lust" and we instinctively think of it as a transgression against God's will. But finding someone attractive isn't a sin, and wanting to be attractive to others isn't a sin either. It's just a natural part of being human.

Of course anything can become obsessive, but that doesn't mean that those things are a sin in and of themselves. It's only when we, with our all too susceptible human nature become enslaved by them that those things become sins. Oddly enough, it may even be a sin to obsess about finding sin

partinobodycular said:

. Oddly enough, it may even be a sin to obsess about finding sin

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You seem obsessed with not finding sin. You just argue it away with a bunch of words. You want to make me look evil but then preach to me about obsessing over people's sin. Have a good day friend. I'm not interested in further discussion. You will probably continue to argue against everything I say

soldier of light said:

You seem obsessed with not finding sin.

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Trust me, I can find it. Just probably not where you want me to.

partinobodycular said:

Trust me, I can find it. Just probably not where you want me to.

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That's fine with me. We will all answer for what do in our body.

You seem to suggest that lusting after each other is OK. But if adultery is committed In the mind like Jesus said, then why can't fornication be committed in the mind as well? Women enticing men to lust after them and men obliging them. Marriage shouldn't be based on lust but love. If you love someone you dont need to see them half naked before marrying them.

Ok, so I'm going to be snarky here, so feel free it snark back. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Are we really going to blame the use of clothes on religion?

We can put it to the test. Everyone that believes that get naked and see what happens.

My money is on the bet that, at the least, the majority of women will be begging for their clothes back, and maybe a decent amount of men too, if you get my drift.

The OP is from a guy, yes?

Am I being prejudice, or am I just acknowledging the differences in the sexes?

But I have to admit, I didn't get through the podcast. May be back after I do, just feel confident I won't change my mind. Miracles do happen though.

I would say this is a simple case of what is good for the gander, is not good for the goose.

I'll also chime in on the lust thingy as it went on for some time.

Love for God and others is obviously not a sin.

Lust is a perversion of love and is a sin. It, at its basic level, is all about me.

Desire will find itself in one or the other.

Not looking to get into all the judgemental, obsessing thing, just sharing my view on it, with my clothes on.

Gracias!
So much preaching. I'm thinking it is acceptable now, or is it just when it fits our intentions / agenda?

What to do? What to do? I say go with God's love, which may mean, preach it.

Ok. Last one and I will see about returning to the OP,

With my clothes on (wink).

1 Corinthians 13:

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

soldier of light said:

Everyone has lust. Don't act like you don't. People lust for material things, power, and pleasure. I don't. When I have impure thoughts I cast them out like scripture teaches us. But why is it OK for a woman to have lust in her heart for men and to dress like a prostitute to entice them? She wants men to lust after her. Why is that ok but a man giving her what she wants is wrong? It's all wrong.

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I don’t have lust, actually. And when I dress, I dress for myself and my needs, not because I want a reaction from men. It’s insanely self-centered and egomaniacal to think women wake up every day with a specific goal of crafting themselves to appeal to you and your desires.

In fact, I dare say most women look at a guy who says women dress like prostitutes and the thought furthest from their mind is “now there’s a guy who’s good opinion and attention I’m desperate to lure because he has a healthy view of women.”

Jo555 said:

Ok. Last one and I will see about returning to the OP,

With my clothes on (wink).

1 Corinthians 13:

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

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Love doesn't entice it's neighbor with its body