Why not take the Bible for what it says?

Critias said:

For those who don't know of sheeps, shall we tell them the Bible doesn't speak of sheeps? Shall we changed the meaning of the text to suit them?

The author's meaning will never change. You can change it and make it say whatever you wish, but doesn't mean that is what the author intended to say.

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I agree. God says what He means and means what He says. Who are we to argue with God? Or place words in His mouth? Or change around the His words in Scripture to fit our own self-created beliefs?

SackLunch said:

I agree. God says what He means and means what He says. Who are we to argue with God? Or place words in His mouth? Or change around the His words in Scripture to fit our own self-created beliefs?

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Same to you, with knobs on.

God says he created the world about 6000 years ago in 6 days. That is what he said. Don't try to change what he said. Just say he is wrong. Or just say you don't understand what he is saying, but don't try to change what he has said.
I know a church where the pastor said some pretty "far out things" and his successors want to edit all of his books and tapes. I say leave it as it is, and don't try to change it or redefine it or make it mean something else. Have the guts, courage, intestinal fortitude to just say, "IT IT WRONG," like glauus does.

Floodnut said:

God says he created the world about 6000 years ago in 6 days. That is what he said. Don't try to change what he said. Just say he is wrong. Or just say you don't understand what he is saying, but don't try to change what he has said.
I know a church where the pastor said some pretty "far out things" and his successors want to edit all of his books and tapes. I say leave it as it is, and don't try to change it or redefine it or make it mean something else. Have the guts, courage, intestinal fortitude to just say, "IT IT WRONG," like glauus does.

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where is the statement that creation was 6kya?

before you lauch into the geneologies of Genesis, note that at best they get you to Gen 2 and Adam in the garden.
show me the time element from Gen 1 to the garden?
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Floodnut said:

God says he created the world about 6000 years ago in 6 days. That is what he said. Don't try to change what he said. Just say he is wrong. Or just say you don't understand what he is saying, but don't try to change what he has said.
I know a church where the pastor said some pretty "far out things" and his successors want to edit all of his books and tapes. I say leave it as it is, and don't try to change it or redefine it or make it mean something else. Have the guts, courage, intestinal fortitude to just say, "IT IT WRONG," like glauus does.

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But, floodnut, as far as I am concerned, God did not say those things. Don't misrepresent me as saying God is wrong.

I don't think the Bible says anything in conflict with science. I don't think grasshoppers have four legs, or mustard seeds are the smallest seeds; I do, however, think that sometimes people obsess about the presentation of a crucial theological point, instead of looking at the actual statement the Bible has for us.

Reading origins theology feels sometimes like watching a bunch of strong, healthy, people sitting around watching Jesus carry the Cross, and arguing over what wood it's made of, and telling Him to stop for a second so they can drill it for core samples, so they can be sure they know exactly what wood it's on. Instead of, say, helping carry it.

Floodnut said:

God says he created the world about 6000 years ago in 6 days.

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He's never said it to me.

Just in case there's been any doubt, I want to clarify my position: Jesus is God. Moses isn't.

gluadys said:

But, floodnut, as far as I am concerned, God did not say those things. Don't misrepresent me as saying God is wrong.

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God did say those things. Don't try to alter his words. Just say, yes that is what the Bible says, but I don't believe it. You TE folks really think anyone seriously believes that you really believe the Bible actually intended to say what you imagine it to say? I don't say you are lying, but that you have really just fooled yourselves. You have dug in to hermeneutics and possible meaning of grammar and vocabulary, but the words are there still.
You chose to bow down to science and disregard the simple grammatical sense intended by the authors. I am so sorry for you.

seebs said:

He's never said it to me.

Just in case there's been any doubt, I want to clarify my position: Jesus is God. Moses isn't.

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Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.

Floodnut said:

Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.

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you could be referring to one of two sets of verses

either:

Jhn 5:45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
Jhn 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
Jhn 5:47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

or

Luk 16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
Luk 16:20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
Luk 16:21 and longing to be fed with the {crumbs} which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and {that} none may cross over from there to us.'
Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

you did not specify, both discuss the relationship of Moses to Jesus. But neither of them are addressed to the Gentiles who are ignorant of Moses. Both are directly addressed to the Jews who had the testimony of Moses. Or are you saying that no one can be a Christian without accepting all of the Mosaic writings? why did i give just a book of John to the last EE contact? if all of the Torah is required in order to believe in Jesus?

you sound like the Judizers, wanting to put us under the Mosaic law again. no thank you.


Or are you trying to say that YECism is a salvation issue?
that it is YECism is the crucial interpretive key to the Torah?
or that a belief that the earth is less than 6KYA is as important as a submission to God in Christ?

what exactly do you mean?
for Moses testified to Jesus but not in the geneologies of Genesis and in Bishop Ussher's calculations.
Where in these verses do you find a requirement to be a Christian and to believe that Moses requires us to believe the earth is very young?
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rmwilliamsll said:

* * * * * Where in these verses do you find a requirement to be a Christian and to believe that Moses requires us to believe the earth is very young?
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The only REQUIREMENT is to trust in the Lord Jesus. Personally I am not interested in minimums however.

Floodnut said:

God did say those things. Don't try to alter his words. Just say, yes that is what the Bible says, but I don't believe it. You TE folks really think anyone seriously believes that you really believe the Bible actually intended to say what you imagine it to say? I don't say you are lying, but that you have really just fooled yourselves. You have dug in to hermeneutics and possible meaning of grammar and vocabulary, but the words are there still.
You chose to bow down to science and disregard the simple grammatical sense intended by the authors. I am so sorry for you.

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1. The bible does not say anywhere that the world was created 6,000 years ago. Therefore, even by a dictation theory of inspiration (which is a Muslim, not a Christian belief) it is not appropriate to claim that God said this.

2. The bible does say the world was created in six days. But whether the context of the six days is history is an open question. This is not about vocabulary or grammar, but about the wider context of genre. The Holy Spirit nowhere specified that the account of creation in six days was to be understood as history, symbol or non-historical narrative.

You claim, erroneously, that I am ignoring simple grammar, but you are equally ignoring the plain facts of nature which are the works of God's own hands. We will never get to the truth of the matter unless all truth, including scientific truth, is taken into account. Pretending that scientific truth is not truth is a certain way to fall into error, even when reading scripture. We can no more pick and choose which parts of physical reality are real than we can pick and choose which parts of scripture are scripture. We have to take all of it as given.

Floodnut said:

Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.

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Really? So, should I believe that I can divorce just because I feel like it? That's what Moses said. Moses allowed divorce; Jesus doesn't.

I think there is some room for speculation on what of the things Moses said Jesus was talking about. Perhaps you could provide the citation so we could look at the text together and learn something?

gluadys said:

1. The bible does not say anywhere that the world was created 6,000 years ago. Therefore, even by a dictation theory of inspiration (which is a Muslim, not a Christian belief) it is not appropriate to claim that God said this.

2. The bible does say the world was created in six days. But whether the context of the six days is history is an open question. This is not about vocabulary or grammar, but about the wider context of genre. The Holy Spirit nowhere specified that the account of creation in six days was to be understood as history, symbol or non-historical narrative.

You claim, erroneously, that I am ignoring simple grammar, but you are equally ignoring the plain facts of nature which are the works of God's own hands. We will never get to the truth of the matter unless all truth, including scientific truth, is taken into account. Pretending that scientific truth is not truth is a certain way to fall into error, even when reading scripture. We can no more pick and choose which parts of physical reality are real than we can pick and choose which parts of scripture are scripture. We have to take all of it as given.

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Your repeated denials that the Bible does not teach 6 day creation 6000 years ago does not change the fact that this is what is asserted by the simple sense of Scripture and this is the view affirmed by the whole of Scripture. Then you try to fault me for rejecting God's revelation since I will not allow evolutionistic misinterpretations of nature to lord it over the plain sense of Scripture. You do pick and choose Scripture and BY YOUR OWN bold admission you choose to reject the simple sense of Scripture because it does not agree with the supreme revelation in your evolutionistic interpretation of the natural world.
Jesus took the account of Moses as literal.

seebs said:

Really? So, should I believe that I can divorce just because I feel like it? That's what Moses said. Moses allowed divorce; Jesus doesn't.

I think there is some room for speculation on what of the things Moses said Jesus was talking about. Perhaps you could provide the citation so we could look at the text together and learn something?

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Your dodge here, and your complaint about Moses and his alleged view of divorce don't change the simple fact: Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.
Moses asserted 6 days of creation about 6000 years ago, with a literal Adam and Eve, a literal Abel, a literal Noah, a literal Ark and a worldwide flood.
REALLY.

Floodnut said:

Your dodge here, and your complaint about Moses and his alleged view of divorce don't change the simple fact: Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.
Moses asserted 6 days of creation about 6000 years ago, with a literal Adam and Eve, a literal Abel, a literal Noah, a literal Ark and a worldwide flood.
REALLY.

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Where did Moses mention 6,000 years? Why do you think he forgot to include the creation of water in the 6 days of creation? Why did he talk about creating "the heavens AND the earth" when the earth is automatically a part of the heavens? Could it be that you have not paid attention fully to what Moses wrote?

Floodnut said:

Your repeated denials that the Bible does not teach 6 day creation 6000 years ago does not change the fact that this is what is asserted by the simple sense of Scripture

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But we don't know that the simple sense is the right sense.

Jesus took the account of Moses as literal.

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We don't know that either.

Floodnut said:

Your dodge here, and your complaint about Moses and his alleged view of divorce don't change the simple fact: Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.
Moses asserted 6 days of creation about 6000 years ago, with a literal Adam and Eve, a literal Abel, a literal Noah, a literal Ark and a worldwide flood.
REALLY.

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the MOST important theme of Genesis 1 is the Sabbath. but yor aren't Sabbatarian, you have reinterpreted Genesis 1 to escape the implications of the eternal Sabbath as a creation ordinance. in fact when i brought up the issue before no one even knew what sabbatarianism was, it had been that long since the general American church taught Sabbatarianism... it took another reformed person to even recognize the term. yet the sabbath is the KEY element of Gen 1.

don't tell me you are taking Genesis in it's simple, most literal sense. if you were you would be Sabbatarian.


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Floodnut said:

Your dodge here, and your complaint about Moses and his alleged view of divorce don't change the simple fact: Just in case there is any doubt, Jesus (who is God) said that if you don't believe Moses you can't believe him.

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I asked you for a citation, no? I still haven't seen it.

Moses asserted 6 days of creation about 6000 years ago, with a literal Adam and Eve, a literal Abel, a literal Noah, a literal Ark and a worldwide flood.
REALLY.

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Moses asserted that you can divorce for many reasons, too.

And frankly: No, Moses did not assert six 24-hour days of creation about 6000 years ago, or a worldwide flood. Moses wrote down a bunch of stories his people told, with nothing anywhere saying "this is literal and not allegorical". He wrote them down using the sorts of linguistic structures (heavy repetition, symbolic language, and so on) typical of poetic mythology, not typical of literal history.

Look at the huge difference in style between Genesis 1 and Exodus 1. These are not the same kinds of stories.

rmwilliamsll said:

the MOST important theme of Genesis 1 is the Sabbath. but yor aren't Sabbatarian, you have reinterpreted Genesis 1 to escape the implications of the eternal Sabbath as a creation ordinance. in fact when i brought up the issue before no one even knew what sabbatarianism was, it had been that long since the general American church taught Sabbatarianism... it took another reformed person to even recognize the term. yet the sabbath is the KEY element of Gen 1.

don't tell me you are taking Genesis in it's simple, most literal sense. if you were you would be Sabbatarian.


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I observe the Sabbath and I don't see it anywhere in Genesis 1.