Why is there suffering if God is real?

Donkky12 · Apr 14, 2024

Clare73 said:
Sounds like someone needs to spend some quality time in the reading of the whole Bible.

If you have spent mentioned quality time, why can't you explain it? Can't expect someone to read something they are skeptical about

Donkky12 · Apr 14, 2024

Hawkins said:
It's already explained. See my post above.

#15

This is actually mathematical.
Freewill at the end means one is given the ability to oppose God.
By assuming a normal distribution (i.e., mathematical statistics and probabilities) of human or angel behavior by free will, it's estimated that 1/3 angels will choose to sin against God when measured by Law. Since humans are given a larger degree of freewill. It is estimated that more than 2/3 humans will choose to sin against God when measured by the same Law. Humans are thus said to be saved through the narrow gate.

However another factor jammed in besides the freewill factor. The 1/3 bad angels (crafty snake in Eden) are much more intelligent than humans and can pose a negative effect upon humans. As a result of the angelic influence, it is said that Satan kept all humans under captive. That is by freewill alone there shall be 1/3 or less humans are deemed savable, but with the angelic influence in place no human can be saved. After extended observation and witness, Law would enforce the destruction of humankind as a whole (that is what the Noah story told).

With Jesus Christ in place then, humans can dodge the Judgment of Law. That is, human behavior are no longer measured by the standard as defined by Law. Instead they are assessed by means of a series of covenants covering the different scope of humans at the various points of humanity.

While Law actually assesses the obedience of an entity with freewill, covenants would assess Faith which is equally crucial to humans for them to live with the eternal God (as told by the Eden story where Adam fell because of the lacking of faith in God and lacking obedience at the same time). A covenant thus would assess both Faith and obedience, and with the New Covenant only assesses a human's Faith and faith only, as both the saved and unsaved are equally inobedient that any form of Law won't be able to tell them apart. Only faith would indicate who can live the sin-incompatible God in the forever realm.

The math,
Freewill alone:
2/3 angels saved by means of a Judgment of Law, 1/3 or less humans are saved in the same way.

But with influence from angels:
zero humans are saved.

With Jesus' self-sacrifice:
1/3 or less humans will be saved by means of a Judgment of Covenant.

Promise from the completely sin-incompatible God,
If angels passed the Judgment of Law or humans passed the Judgment of Covenant, God would bear with them in eternity no matter what (as a Shepherd to His sheep).

Where are all these stats coming from that 1/3 of angels will sin against god and humans are given a larger amount of freewill etc?

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
If you have spent mentioned quality time, why can't you explain it? Can't expect someone to read something they are skeptical about

Nor can you expect them to believe the answer from that which they are skeptical about, they having shut themselves out of the truth which they seek.

Donkky12 · Apr 14, 2024

Hawkins said:
It's because your pre-assumption is wrong. Earth should have been a hell, if it's not because God's sheep are still here.

Isaiah 14:17
the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?

Ever since Adam was kicked out of Eden, humans are living in a realm outside of God's dwelling realm, while any place outside of God's dwelling place will decay into a hell. In such a hell, the most evil and the most powerful will eventually rule due to the lack of God's direct influence. This happens to be Satan - the man who turned this world into a wilderness. That's why Satan is referred to as "the god of this world". Earth is no paradise as you might have presumed. That's actually we have to pray that "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven". We pray that God's direct influence coming back on earth.

Earth is not yet a hell under the influence of Satan, who turned everyone without exception into his captives, simply because God won't give up His sheep. God still has a salvation job here. Christians however are told that we don't belong here. We need to endure in order to be saved, just like the sheep in the wilderness full of beasts.

For that matter, earth should have been destoryed completely by a flood in Noah's days as it is supposed to be a hell.

Thank you. Of all the reasons posted, this seems a little more believable. Are there more proof or readings regarding Earth being hell?

Donkky12 · Apr 14, 2024

Clare73 said:
Nor can you expect them to believe the answer from that which they are skeptical about, they having shut themselves out of the truth which they seek.

calm down there. you're not jesus. I am skeptical, hence i am trying to seek the truth. you're not making sense, you need to do more than pray.

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
calm down there. you're not jesus.

"Interesting" non-response to Biblical truth. . .explains a lot.

Matt5 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
If you have spent mentioned quality time, why can't you explain it? Can't expect someone to read something they are skeptical about

The point of suffering is to show that man (and angels) can't rule. Otherwise, welcome to Star Wars as the universe fills out. This take time.

The big test comes to an end when man, with the help of angels (demons), is just about to wipe out everyone.

We get something like this: [Destruction + False Prophet] => [Return of Jesus + Kingdom of Heaven (on Earth)]

[Destruction + False Prophet] = [Wide Gate] => [Narrow Gate] => [Kingdom of Heaven (on Earth)]
[Narrow Gate] = If you are still alive and have avoided the mark of the beast, now enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Donkky12 · Apr 14, 2024

Clare73 said:
"Interesting" non-response to Biblical truth. . .explains a lot.

that's how the bible writes isn't it, the way they phrase things. You can speak in simple terms. Either way, you're not making sense.

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
you need to do more than pray.

Agreed. . .and what do you need to do?

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
that's how the bible writes isn't it, the way they phrase things.

Hardly. . .

Donkky12 said:
You can speak in simple terms. Either way, you're not making sense.

Not surprising when the Bible is a closed book to those who reject it.

Donkky12 · Apr 14, 2024

Clare73 said:
Hardly. . .

Not surprising when the Bible is a closed book to those who reject it.

If you can't convince others that it is the truth, it will be a fiction book. If you can't explain it, to enlighten me who is sceptical, it means you're sort of role-playing in a fictional book written in a very convincing way, isn't it? I want to believe, but not blindly believe.

Clare73 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
If you can't convince others that it is the truth, it will be a fiction book. If you can't explain it to enlighten me who is sceptical, it means you're sort of role-playing in a fictional book written in a very convincing way, isn't it? I want to believe, but not blindly believe.

1) That is good to hear, but your responses do not give that impression.
2) There is no belief of the Bible which is not given by the Holy Spirit.
3) I likewise wanted to believe it, but could not. I couldn't make myself believe what I did not believe.
The way in for me was a sincere commitment, "I'll believe it until I can't." And then, not knowing what else to do, I started at Ge 1:1.
And wonder of wonders, I never reached the point where I couldn't believe it.
Rather, with each chapter it grew more and more in power and glory, until the deal was closed in the book of Leviticus, which has remained my favorite book, it being the foretelling of Christ.
I have been a student of Scripture for decades ever since.

Living Vine · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Hello all,

I can't help but to question the existence of God particularly because of suffering in the world. e.g. I read the news regarding 5yo being raped and killed to say the least amongst all the other pain experienced by myself or others in the world.

I have read about the Adam and Eve answers but I don't quite understand - why would God create that tree just to test Adam and Eve but punishing us when we're totally unrelated? I have also heard answers about free will, why create hatred just so we can feel loved? Why not just fill us with a copious amount of love with free will of who we interact with so that we feel loved by each other everyday (just our choice on who we want to interact with but regardless, still loving one another) whether on Earth or in Heaven. What's the point of all these "tests" and "temporary time" on Earth?

Feels like God is treating us like an experiment in someway.

Several have discussed the aspect of free will. If you were creating someone to love you in a true way, you must create them with the ability to choose you or not, and then you must live with the results of their choice. It can't be any other way, for true love and a healthy, mutual relationship to take place.

But I think there's also the aspect of dominion as conveyed in Genesis 1:26. There God said He was making man in His own likeness, and that man was to have dominion over the earth. This was delegated authority, given to man. So here too, man had that choice as to whether to obey God. When man didn't obey the command not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he lost his authority over the earth and gave that to the enemy. God had said that man would die if he ate that tree, so all the calamities and suffering came along with that bad choice. It had to be that way.

But hallelujah! Christ came to restore us and remove the curse of our bad choice!

AlexB23 · Apr 14, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Hello all,

I can't help but to question the existence of God particularly because of suffering in the world. e.g. I read the news regarding 5yo being raped and killed to say the least amongst all the other pain experienced by myself or others in the world.

I have read about the Adam and Eve answers but I don't quite understand - why would God create that tree just to test Adam and Eve but punishing us when we're totally unrelated? I have also heard answers about free will, why create hatred just so we can feel loved? Why not just fill us with a copious amount of love with free will of who we interact with so that we feel loved by each other everyday (just our choice on who we want to interact with but regardless, still loving one another) whether on Earth or in Heaven. What's the point of all these "tests" and "temporary time" on Earth?

Feels like God is treating us like an experiment in someway.

I'm glad that you have the courage to ask questions about your faith, Donkky12. Your concerns regarding the existence of God in light of suffering are common and understandable.

Let me try to address some of your specific questions using relevant Bible verses:

First, regarding the existence of God in the face of suffering, it's important to remember that the Bible does not promise a world without suffering. In fact, Jesus Himself suffered and experienced pain during His time on earth (Isaiah 53:3-5, Matthew 27:26-38). The Bible also acknowledges the reality of suffering and its presence in the world (John 16:33, Romans 8:22-25). However, it also promises that God is with us in our suffering and will ultimately bring good out of it (Romans 8:28).

Regarding the story of Adam and Eve and the tree in the garden, it's important to remember that this story is about more than just a test. God created Adam and Eve with the capacity for free will, which means they had the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience (Genesis 2:16-17). Their decision to disobey God led to sin entering the world, which resulted in suffering and separation from God (Genesis 3:6-24). However, even in their sin, God did not abandon them. He made clothing for them out of animal skins and promised a savior who would ultimately defeat Satan (Genesis 3:21, Genesis 3:15).

Regarding the existence of hatred and suffering, it's important to remember that God did not create these things. Instead, they are a result of sin and human free will (James 4:1-3). However, even in the midst of hatred and suffering, God offers love and redemption. In fact, one of the most powerful demonstrations of God's love is found in Jesus' willingness to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8, John 3:16).

Regarding the purpose of life and suffering on earth, it's important to remember that our time on earth is not just a test or an experiment. It's an opportunity for us to grow and develop a relationship with God, to learn valuable lessons, and to serve others (James 1:2-4, Colossians 3:23-24). Ultimately, our goal is not just to survive or even thrive on earth, but to prepare ourselves for eternal life in heaven with God (Matthew 6:19-20).

I hope that this helps answer some of your questions, Donkky12. Please let me, or others on Christian Forums, know if you have any further questions or concerns.

CoreyD · Apr 15, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Hello all,

I can't help but to question the existence of God particularly because of suffering in the world. e.g. I read the news regarding 5yo being raped and killed to say the least amongst all the other pain experienced by myself or others in the world.

I have read about the Adam and Eve answers but I don't quite understand - why would God create that tree just to test Adam and Eve but punishing us when we're totally unrelated? I have also heard answers about free will, why create hatred just so we can feel loved? Why not just fill us with a copious amount of love with free will of who we interact with so that we feel loved by each other everyday (just our choice on who we want to interact with but regardless, still loving one another) whether on Earth or in Heaven. What's the point of all these "tests" and "temporary time" on Earth?

Feels like God is treating us like an experiment in someway.

Hi Don.
I like your questions, and I can tell by them that you give things quite a lot of thought.
That's good, because it means you listen, and give consideration to what is said.

Many persons have these same questions, and more, and that is quite understandable. after all, we may have seen super hero movies, which never show any hero hearing people's cries for help, and ignoring them. Unless...

they aren't around
they aren't powerful enough

Or, they is another option, which is better than the one that's expected.

#1 and #2 need not be considered, because the question of God's existence and power, though still floating around, have been answered, although some do not like the answer.
So, perhaps considering the latter option is something worth doing.

Often, in Superhero movies, the hero is given an option to choose to save one or the other.
The impossible happens, and they save both. That's Hollywood.
Keeping it real, what options does God have?

Save all the young women, men and babies from rape, and kill all the rapist, or allow them to attempt to rape again, and intervene to save the victim?
kill all would be rapists, and murderers, and those who torture people?
Program everyone to have love, and not have a heart of their own, with desires, intentions, etc.?

Can you think of any options besides those?
What if God allows all people their own choice to learn the way of love and peace, despite their negative effects and consequences on others, knowing that those negative effects and consequences, will be reversed, and never be remembered, nor occur again, because all traces of those who chose not to learn love, will be gone forever - never to be seen again (Please read Psalm 37:1-20, Romans 8:18-25, and Revelation 21:3-5)?

Does that not sound like a better option?
Is it something you heard or thought about before?

CoreyD · Apr 15, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Did God not create Adam and Eve?

That is correct.

Donkky12 said:
If so, why did he let them choose the apple?

The fruit. Not an apple necessarily.
God allowed man the freedom to choose to love and obey him of their own volition.
I don't think anyone prefers to be forced to love someone. Is that something you'd prefer?

Donkky12 said:
Why can't it be right the first time, why do we need a second chance when God could've created us with eternal life with no suffering right off the bat.

How could God create persons with eternal life with no suffering? Would those persons be robots - programed to not feel anything, nor hurt anything?
Would you prefer to be a robot?

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Hello all,

I can't help but to question the existence of God particularly because of suffering in the world. e.g. I read the news regarding 5yo being raped and killed to say the least amongst all the other pain experienced by myself or others in the world.

I have read about the Adam and Eve answers but I don't quite understand - why would God create that tree just to test Adam and Eve but punishing us when we're totally unrelated? I have also heard answers about free will, why create hatred just so we can feel loved? Why not just fill us with a copious amount of love with free will of who we interact with so that we feel loved by each other everyday (just our choice on who we want to interact with but regardless, still loving one another) whether on Earth or in Heaven. What's the point of all these "tests" and "temporary time" on Earth?

Feels like God is treating us like an experiment in someway.

I think some of us learn compassion through our suffering and others become bitter. I don't pretend to understand it all. But Jesus also suffered and He died for us. God definitely isn't experimenting because He controls the outcome and knows the future.

dzheremi · Apr 20, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Doesn't make sense, does it? God said he gave us free will because he love us and yet, Adam chose for ALL of us, we ALL didn't have or had a choice. How is that fair?

That's only one way to look at the fall, however. I think that kind of interpretation tends to be what predominates in western Christianity, but in the Christian east (churches like the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt, the Syriac Orthodox Church in Iraq/Syria/Turkey/India, the various Greco-Arab and Greco-Slavic churches in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, etc.), the fall tends to be seen more in terms of an ancestral sin that has an effect on the human race going forward, without anyone alive since then being personally guilty for anything. In fact, there is a kind of interpretative tradition that can be found to some degree in both the East and the West (but seems to be more prominent in the East) that says that just as Jesus is the restoration of Adam (being the archetypal/primordial "first man", "Adam" here is taken as a synonym or placeholder for all of mankind), His mother the Theotokos St. Mary can be likewise seen as the restoration of Eve, as the Theotokos listens to God when He tells her through His archangel that she will bare the Son of God, whereas Eve listened to the Serpent instead of listening to God's prohibition in the Garden. This is why there are certain paraliturgical songs in the Coptic Orthodox tradition that are dedicated to St. Mary that have this theme (e.g., "You did not listen to the serpent") which might otherwise seem strange or obscure, given the distance in time between our first parents and the mother of God St. Mary.

So if it is about "fairness" (which I don't believe it is, but I'll go with it for the sake of finishing up this point), then we could say that the "unfairness" ended with the coming of Jesus Christ our God, Who is incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary. In this, all is restored to "fairness", as the One Whom she bore has elevated and transformed all of humanity, just as she (allegorically!) transformed the image of Eve as the primordial mother from a source of sin and defilement of our race to being perfectly restored and made holy by God, just as she herself was so as to be made a suitable place of rest for His beloved Son. This is, e.g., what is behind the refrain of the Thursday hymn for the Midnight Praises of Kiahk (the month of the Coptic calendar that is especially dedicated to singing praises to St. Mary as the Theotokos) known in English as "The Burning Bush": "Blessed is the pride of the human race" (referring, understandably in this context, to St. Mary herself).

Apple Sky · Apr 24, 2024

Donkky12 said:
I can't help but to question the existence of God particularly because of suffering in the world. e.g. I read the news regarding 5yo being raped and killed to say the least amongst all the other pain experienced by myself or others in the world.

All the suffering in the world is caused by Man alone

Aviel · Apr 26, 2024

Donkky12 said:
Feels like God is treating us like an experiment in someway.

God is treating you like a Human who has choice.

And that is God's gift to you....its to allow you to be able to choose your own choices, and choose your own LIFE, as you will have it.. as you CHOSE IT.

Otherwise, if it was all pre-destined, and you had no choice, then you are just a meat puppet.. just a robot.....just a nothing.

God didn't create robot nothings..>.....He created moral beings who have the right to choose whatever you want..

So, choose wisely, as every choice is on you. @Donkky12

Why is there suffering if God is real?

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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