Why is Rob Bell considered a heretic?

NorrinRadd · Jul 1, 2008

hiumble1 said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Genesis 3:1-6 ...[/FONT]

And your point is...?

NorrinRadd · Jul 1, 2008

Nadiine said:
=)
Well there's alot more than just that -

I'm finding all kinds of stuff on the net

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/rob_bell_yoga_m.html

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2008/03/rob_bell_and_ne_1.html

There's no doubt in my mind his ties to Eastern religion - my sister read his book and had said the same.

That's *potentially* troubling. However, since to some extent Xianity is itself an "Eastern" religion, such "ties" are not *automatically* bad.

I never heard of that "apprising" site before. I looked around there just briefly. They seem a bit bent out of shape about "contemplative prayer." I have to wonder what their attitude is toward the practice of "praying in tongues," and to the common Pentecostal and Charismatic practice of "waiting on God."

I also notice that their SoF contains a lot of "Reformed" lingo, which per se is no problem, but coupled with their explicit concerns about "semi-Pelagianism" gives me, a more-or-less Arminian a moment of pause.

NorrinRadd · Jul 1, 2008

Johnnz said:
...

Long before this world was created, before mankind fell the Triune God purposed that humanity would be adopted into the divine family through Jesus. Had Adam never sinned He would still have become incarnate so that we can become part of God's family. That is what our adoption is all about.

No, I don't think that holds up.

If Adam (the first) had never fallen, there would have been no need for the "last Adam," Jesus. There would have been no need to either birth or adopt us.

Now it's certainly possible that He would have chosen to incarnate anyway, just to more closely identify with us, but that's a separate issue.

That is in verse 5. In verse 7 Paul then mentions our redemption, necessary because of our sin.

Our relationship with God is based on His love. It was His love that drove Him to redeem us. Read on in Ephesians and see how often the word 'love' is used. In 3:17 Paul writes about being rooted and established in love. To 'be rooted and established' means our life with God begins and continues with love as its very foundation and source. Love forms the basis of our relationship with God, not fear of judgement. It's a fear based faith that is really heretical.

John
NZ

Given that Scripture teaches that "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom," your need to be careful not to let your closing sentence become detached from the context of the paragraph. There IS an important place for "fear" in our "faith." I think most of us -- I included, certainly -- are far too lax about the reverent, awe-filled "numinous" fear of God.

Tenebrae · Jul 1, 2008

Nadiine said:
here's an article I found stating that Rob Bell denies the authority of scriptures (excerpt from his book)

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/526/Ken_Silva

Pfft, one sentence taken out of context

That proves alot

Nadiine · Jul 1, 2008

Tenebrae said:
Pfft, one sentence taken out of context

That proves alot

Pfft, reads 1 thing & decides THAT'S ALL THE PROOF THERE IS about it

oh dear me.

You know, it appears that people just pick a side and run with their eyes wide shut.
There are pages & articles about new ageism being brought into Christianity by Rob Bell and the list of others. It all speaks for itself.

Thankfully there are alot of unbiased people out there who do need the information to form opinions and there's lots of information on this - any google searches bring up tons of it.

We all know how Satan works within the church. He uses just enough truth to frame the LIE and deceit. I don't believe it's taken out of context either; the body of his work, promotion of others & teachings show that he is promoting Eastern religionXnew ageism

Johnnz · Jul 1, 2008

Originally Posted by Johnnz

Long before this world was created, before mankind fell the Triune God purposed that humanity would be adopted into the divine family through Jesus. Had Adam never sinned He would still have become incarnate so that we can become part of God's family. That is what our adoption is all about.

No, I don't think that holds up.

If Adam (the first) had never fallen, there would have been no need for the "last Adam," Jesus. There would have been no need to either birth or adopt us.

Now it's certainly possible that He would have chosen to incarnate anyway, just to more closely identify with us, but that's a separate issue.

HI,

Here are some verses for your consideration.
Eph 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—NIV

Before Eden, before Adam, before sin the Godhead had determined to create beings who were to be adopted into God's family, and that adoption would be through Jesus. Since the created and temporal cannot enter the realm of the uncreated an incarnation was necessary, God becoming flesh in Christ, truly God, truly man, who as the first fruit and our elder brother incorporated our humanity into Himself, so that, in another development in his line of thought Paul wrote

Eph 2:4-10 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV

We are raised with Christ and seated in heaven. Since you and I are currently still on earth 'being seated in the heavenly realms' must mean that we too are incorporated into Christ's resurrection and life now, with it's complete fulfillment to come when Jesus returns. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. Only was we become adopted into God's family through Jesus can we enter the heavenly realms. Thus, the incarnation was always necessary.

Note too God's motive in rescuing us in those verses - the incomparable richness of his grace, expressed in his kindness. That is being rooted and grounded in love. The soil into which we are planted and from which we grow is love. Paul was very clear about that.

John
NZ

Nadiine · Jul 1, 2008

NorrinRadd said:
That's *potentially* troubling. However, since to some extent Xianity is itself an "Eastern" religion, such "ties" are not *automatically* bad.

I never heard of that "apprising" site before. I looked around there just briefly. They seem a bit bent out of shape about "contemplative prayer." I have to wonder what their attitude is toward the practice of "praying in tongues," and to the common Pentecostal and Charismatic practice of "waiting on God."

I also notice that their SoF contains a lot of "Reformed" lingo, which per se is no problem, but coupled with their explicit concerns about "semi-Pelagianism" gives me, a more-or-less Arminian a moment of pause.

Well, I believe it's which God you believe in - not so much knowing God's formula on how He determined to save us... I consider Arminians AND Calvanists both born again believers; whichever camp they're in.
In a way I believe they're both right and wrong and truth lies in the middle... either way, salvation doesn't rest on which 'salvational formula God uses', but the Saviour Himself (thankfully)

I watched a sample prayer on a contemplative website, I believe it IS something to get "bent" over and I'm glad they've gone on their "tangent" about it to inform people.

Here's how I view it, there is more than enough to red flag with all this stuff -- this is just the beginning of this movement. What happens when they start going off the deeper end with the new ageism/Eastern religous methodologies?
I'd rather warn people at the start and let them seek God about it if they question things (which they should do as Christians).

Where is this stuff in the Bible? It's 'steps' in a format using Eastern breathing techniques and new age concepts of focusing on words and partly blanking out the mind.
:o
The prayer in the Bible is taught as CONVERSATION to God as we would converse with another person one on one. Jesus gave us the sample prayer ...... without breathing techniques, sitting with a timer as to how long to wait in between sentences & breaths, etc.

It's turning something into spiritualism/religiosity -- that is supposed to be a heart felt conversation w/ the Lord focusing on Him.
We meditate on His words, not sit in blanked out silence focusing on literally 1 word we choose (or repeat the word over and over).
It sort of reminds me of Jesus' teaching:
Mat. 6
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

We aren't to follow the lost in their ways & practices & gimmicks to "FEEL" spiritual (whether its vain repetition, chanting, blanking the mind, or whatever nonChristians practice in their prayers)- Jesus gave us a BETTER WAY to communicate with Him. We have the true God, we don't need the stuff they do becuz we have the true God within us that gives us what they lack & have to use steps & works to achieve.
Why take other Bits of other religions when we have our own??
& if we feel a need to copy others, what makes OURS original or true??
This only teaches Christians that we're to look at others & what they do - as if it heightens our alone time with God? - not necessarily what God says and designs for us.
We always have to tamper with what God gives us, why is that?

Just do it HIS way & leave it be.

There's far too much overtone Bell uses that is just not scriptural. Oh sure it sells books & videos becuz it sounds exciting & cutting edge; but all they need to do is read Jesus' model prayer for the format of prayer, not what man spins it into.

NorrinRadd · Jul 1, 2008

Johnnz said:
Originally Posted by Johnnz

Long before this world was created, before mankind fell the Triune God purposed that humanity would be adopted into the divine family through Jesus. Had Adam never sinned He would still have become incarnate so that we can become part of God's family. That is what our adoption is all about.

No, I don't think that holds up.

If Adam (the first) had never fallen, there would have been no need for the "last Adam," Jesus. There would have been no need to either birth or adopt us.

Now it's certainly possible that He would have chosen to incarnate anyway, just to more closely identify with us, but that's a separate issue.

HI,

Here are some verses for your consideration.
Eph 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willNIV

I don't know that it's proper to disconnect that bit from the next few verses, which also refer to our being "in Him," and link it to redemption and forgiveness. It makes just as much sense to stick with the traditional understanding that He foresaw the Fall and planned a remedy, and that both the "adoption" and "redemption" refer to that.

Before Eden, before Adam, before sin the Godhead had determined to create beings who were to be adopted into God's family, and that adoption would be through Jesus. Since the created and temporal cannot enter the realm of the uncreated an incarnation was necessary, God becoming flesh in Christ, truly God, truly man, who as the first fruit and our elder brother incorporated our humanity into Himself, so that, in another development in his line of thought Paul wrote

Eph 2:4-10 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV

We are raised with Christ and seated in heaven. Since you and I are currently still on earth 'being seated in the heavenly realms' must mean that we too are incorporated into Christ's resurrection and life now, with it's complete fulfillment to come when Jesus returns. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. Only was we become adopted into God's family through Jesus can we enter the heavenly realms. Thus, the incarnation was always necessary.

Sorry, not convinced. You have nice speculation, but I don't yet see any Scriptural evidence that does not at least implicitly link "adoption" with "redemption," "forgiveness," etc.

We could just as reasonably speculate that since, according to Luke, Adam was "the son of God," if he had never sinned, we'd have been children of God just by being his descendants, and would not have needed adoption and rebirth. For all we know, maybe if he had been faithful Adam's "dominion" would have been extended and he (and thus we) would have been given celestial seating.

Nadiine · Jul 1, 2008

I dunno, I kinda think that dialog is basically off topic - no offense intended.

p0LkFliedLice · Jul 1, 2008

Who is Rob Bell?

Izdaari Eristikon · Jul 1, 2008

p0LkFliedLice said:
Who is Rob Bell?

When you say it that way, it sounds kinda like "Who is John Galt?"

The quickie Wiki lowdown on both of them (no connection, except that one question reminds me of the other -- but Bell and Galt really aren't much alike):

Rob Bell

John Galt

hiumble1 · Jul 3, 2008

NorrinRadd said:
........to some extent Xianity is itself .....quote]

have some trouble getting the word Christ out?

NorrinRadd · Jul 6, 2008

hiumble1 said:
NorrinRadd said:

........to some extent Xianity is itself .....quote]

have some trouble getting the word Christ out?

Click to expand...

If you are referring to my use of "Xianity," I refer you to this thread, and my comments therein.

AnneSally · Jul 7, 2008

Nadiine said:
Well, I believe it's which God you believe in - not so much knowing God's formula on how He determined to save us... I consider Arminians AND Calvanists both born again believers; whichever camp they're in.
In a way I believe they're both right and wrong and truth lies in the middle... either way, salvation doesn't rest on which 'salvational formula God uses', but the Saviour Himself (thankfully)

WOW!! How refreshing! This is exactly what I think and how I feel too....

AnneSally · Jul 7, 2008

Johnnz said:
Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven.

Then where did the resurrected Christ go? Because He was physically resurrected and had flesh and blood and He ascended in His physical state too.....

Thoughts anyone?

Nadiine · Jul 7, 2008

AnneSally said:
Then where did the resurrected Christ go? Because He was physically resurrected and had flesh and blood and He ascended in His physical state too.....

Thoughts anyone?

1 Cor. 15?

49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

That only says that the physical doesn't inherit God's kingdom.

I don't know what state we'll be resurrected - I haven't put much study into that. I do know that we'll get a new exterior but when God does that, I don't know.
Is it at the moment He calls us up? Or does it happen after we're there?
And probly nothing to stay on for long since it's a detour from the topic lol. =)

AnneSally · Jul 7, 2008

Nadiine said:
1 Cor. 15?

49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of, it only says that the physical cannot inherit the kingdom. But Jesus was raised and had flesh and blood, that's the bit I don't get, because presumably He ascended physically into heaven, in His flesh and blood resurrected body, yes?

Nadiine said:
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

That only says that the physical doesn't inherit God's kingdom.

I don't know what state we'll be resurrected - I haven't put much study into that. I do know that we'll get a new exterior but when God does that, I don't know.
Is it at the moment He calls us up? Or does it happen after we're there?

It will be either when He calls us up, or after we're there. IOW, I don't know.

Nadiine · Jul 7, 2008

AnneSally said:
Yes, that's the one I was thinking of, it only says that the physical cannot inherit the kingdom. But Jesus was raised and had flesh and blood, that's the bit I don't get, because presumably He ascended physically into heaven, in His flesh and blood resurrected body, yes?

It will be either when He calls us up, or after we're there. IOW, I don't know.

Wasn't He transfigured first? lol

And Enoch & Elijah were both traslated into heaven too - alive. So I dunno. Thankfully we don't have to know all this stuff to be saved!
(praise God for that)!

(wipes sweat off forehead) =)

AnneSally · Jul 7, 2008

Nadiine said:
Wasn't He transfigured first? lol

And Enoch & Elijah were both traslated into heaven too - alive. So I dunno. Thankfully we don't have to know all this stuff to be saved!
(praise God for that)!

(wipes sweat off forehead) =)

LOL...Yes, thank goodness for that.

*joins Nadiine in collective sweat wiping off foreheads*

Izdaari Eristikon · Jul 7, 2008

Nadiine said:
Wasn't He transfigured first? lol

And Enoch & Elijah were both traslated into heaven too - alive. So I dunno. Thankfully we don't have to know all this stuff to be saved!
(praise God for that)!

(wipes sweat off forehead) =)

AnneSally said:
LOL...Yes, thank goodness for that.

*joins Nadiine in collective sweat wiping off foreheads*

Yes, resurrected or transfigured bodies do enter heaven, though regular flesh and blood doesn't. Exactly how that works? I have no idea either, so it's good we don't have to know.

Why is Rob Bell considered a heretic?

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