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vanshan said:Really, where? Don't make an accusation and leave us all guessing--some may suppose worse things than the truth. Which conflict or bloodshed are you referring to?
thereselittleflower said:WHAT have you given that is concrete?
You have made accusations against MY Church . . you have made NEGATIVE STATEMENTS AGAINST my Church . . .
You have provided ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to back it up with CONCRETE OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE . .
You said we were free to challange ANYTHING you posted . . . Look at your OP . . .
I am CHALLANGING YOUR NEGATIVE STATEMENTS AGAINST MY CHURCH!
Where is the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE to back up all these things you say are concrete?
You have presented NO Objective Evidence . . just your poorly informed personal opinion . . .
Now . . . pony up!
WHERE is your OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that thiese things are
1) What you THINK they are and
2) That they are WRONG!
You are poorly informed as to Church history and the historical beliefs of your own faith in comparison to what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY believes (as opposed to your flawed, anti-Cahtolic rendition of it) . .
You have provided ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CONCRETE to prove ANYTHING you are claiming against the Catholic Church.
Where is your OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE?
You are required, by the RULES of this site, to BACK UP YOUR NEGATIVE STATEMENTS about another's faith/Church with OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE!
Where is it Basil?
Do you want to get into a battle over arguing the Early Church Fathers?
This is ADVENT did you forget?
And you want to start a WAR between Orthodox and Catholic with your flippant posting of NEGATIVE STATEMENTS AGAINST our Church?
Honestly, I expect better than this from my Orthodox brethern . . .
Post your OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE if you really want to start a battle between Orthodox and Catholics at ADVENT Basil . . . . or stop the posting of NEGATIVE STATEMENTS against our Church . .
Think carefully abou this .. . think about what you are doing . . .
And posting your personal rendition of history is NOT the same thing as providing OBJECITVE EVIDENCE to back up your NEGATIVE STATEMENTS . . .
Think carefully Basil . . . you are lighting a powder keg . . .
Peace to all
There is no question that patriarchs sin. The truth is that a patriarch is not intended to be elevated above the lay people. Or better - the lay people are to be just as holy as the patriarchs.Dont act like you actually believe the EO bishops never sin- there was a case a few years ago of a Bishop in the east hiring a hit man to bump off one of his brother bishops, and yes I can pull the story- it was real, the bishop was under arrest for trying to solicit a murder.
InnerPhyre said:Do please calm yourself, Therese. What he stated, that you are getting indignant about, is the exact same thing you believe about our Church and our faith. It is fundamental to the Orthodox faith, when looking at the schism, to understand that Rome split from the East, just as it is fundamental to the Catholic faith, when looking at the schism, to understand that the East split from Rome.
Either Rome invented the Dogma of infallibility or the East invented equality of bishops. One side has one perspective. One side has the other. Its really nothing to get bent out of shape about.
Can we both stop spitting in each other's faces during this season of advent when we should be focusing on repentance? Please?
And Catholics and the Catholic Church agrees. Im not the one who was playing holier than thou. The truth is the EO are just as scandalous as the Catholic Church who has many modern day accusation against them, from fixing trials to drug dealing, so my point is do not throw stones when you are living in a glass house. We all know our faith is not in either the EO or the Catholic bishops and priests but in Christ.eoe said:There is no question that patriarchs sin. The truth is that a patriarch is not intended to be elevated above the lay people. Or better - the lay people are to be just as holy as the patriarchs.
Patriarchs are fallible. They are broken humans on the path to salvation just as any of us are. While some people might hold a place of honor - we are all equals.
Its only a hand full of the EO members who are anti-Catholic on here and only a hand full of Catholics are anti EO.Isaiah 53 said:I'm with him. One of the things I really enjoy on GT is the unity often shared between Catholic and Orthodox. This is the one place where we wear the same pants, so to speak. While the Schism of 1054 is a fascinating and highly debatable topic, it is not one that we will ever be able to settle here.
It tears me up inside to see us going at each other here...let us cease and pray for unity in our Churches.
PAX CHRISTI
Shelb5 said:Dont act like you actually believe the EO bishops never sin- there was a case a few years ago of a Bishop in the east hiring a hit man to bump off one of his brother bishops, and yes I can pull the story- it was real, the bishop was under arrest for trying to solicit a murder.
vanshan said:Oh, no I've never been surpized by the sin of anyone, although I'm the chief of sinners. No man can act as sole vicar of Christ on earth, because men are all fallible. That's another good reason why the Orthodox don't have a pope--the existence of a single man as head, aside from Christ invites corruption and error, but as a Roman Catholic I guess I don't need to tell you that.
Basil
Its only a hand full of the EO members who are anti-Catholic on here.
No I mean anti catholic.eoe said:.... anti rome you mean?
Anyhoo... I am not anti RC at all. In fact as I type this I am enjoying a trappist ale, Chimay Ale. Delightful stuff. Liquid bread you know...
Isaiah 53 said:Well this demonstrates your total ignorance of the Catholic faith and her teachings on Papal infallibility. How can you be so certain of your historical claims if you lack this basic understanding of the Catholic Church?
PAX CHRISTI
Isaiah 53 said:LOL!! How ominous...return before it's too late....give me a break.
vanshan said:I understand the argument that God's grace allegedley is given to the Pope, so that when speaking ex cathedra, is it?, he is infallible. This grace is given to solidify unity in the Church under this earthly head, but I cannot support this innovation. The Church is perserved from error, but individual men can become corrupted by pride, arrogance, flattery, power, money, immorality, etc. The bishops have always been equal, creating a safety net to preserve the truth against those who would toss apostolic tradition out the window.
I agree that we should keep our debate kind during this holy season. I am not heated up about this, I'm not anti-Roman Catholic, I just must defend the truth. Any church that raises itself up against the Universal Church established by Christ, must be torn down, not with violence, but by exposing its error. Not out of anger or spite, but out of compassion for those who are led astray.
Forgive me, if my debate has been felt as assault. The truth sometimes is offensive, but it's not my motive to offend. I feel bad, not good, that this conversation upsets some of you, but history stands showing us the way home to Christ.
Basil
Shelb,No I mean anti catholic.
Christ didn't establish multiple denominations!
um...
He didn't establish ANY church.
(Mat 18:17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(Act 5:11) And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
(Act 7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
(Act 8:1) And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
(Act 8:3) As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
(Act 11:22) Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
(Act 11:26) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
(Act 12:1) Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
(Act 12:5) Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.
(Act 13:1) Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
(Act 14:23) And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
(Act 14:27) And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
(Act 15:3) And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
(Act 15:4) And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
(Act 15:22) Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas: namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
(Act 18:22) And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church, he went down to Antioch.
(Act 20:17) And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
(Act 20:28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
(Rom 16:1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(Rom 16:5) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
(Rom 16:23) Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
(1Co 1:2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
(1Co 4:17) For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
(1Co 6:4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
(1Co 10:32) Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
(1Co 11:18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
(1Co 11:22) What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
(1Co 12:28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(1Co 14:4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
(1Co 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
(1Co 14:12) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
(1Co 14:19) Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
(1Co 14:23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(1Co 14:35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(1Co 15:9) For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
(1Co 16:19) The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
(2Co 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
(Gal 1:13) For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
(Eph 1:22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
(Eph 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
(Eph 3:21) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
(Eph 5:23) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
(Eph 5:24) Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(Eph 5:25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
(Eph 5:27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
(Eph 5:29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
(Eph 5:32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
(Phi 3:6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
(Phi 4:15) Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Col 1:24) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
(Col 4:15) Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
(Col 4:16) And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
(1Th 1:1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2Th 1:1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
(1Ti 3:15) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
(1Ti 5:16) If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
(Phm 1:2) And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in thy house:
(Heb 2:12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
(Heb 12:23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(Jam 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
(1Pe 5:13) The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.
(3Jo 1:6) Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
(3Jo 1:9) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
(3Jo 1:10) Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
(Rev 2:1) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
(Rev 2:8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
(Rev 2:12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
(Rev 2:18) And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
(Rev 3:1) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
(Rev 3:7) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
(Rev 3:14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Your still a protestant!The Roman Catholic Church departed from the Ancient Universal Church in 1054 A.D., and never returned for many reasons, including the creations of the modern Papacy, with the Bishop in Rome claiming universal authority over all Christians. Errant doctrines arose, such as original sin, immaculate conception of Mary (suggesting that this is different than the way all men are born--without sin), infallibility of the Pope, Mary as Co-Mediatrix, purgatory and indulgences, a very legalistic system of penence, substitionary atonement (suggesting that God required the death of His Son to forgive us), and more.
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