Why I Think the Methodist Church Has Gone Astray

circuitrider said:

RomansFiveEight her post is full of buzz words. "Goes against the word of God" = "Goes against my interpretation of what the Bible says." "Religion at its finest" = "equating "religion" with something that is not faith

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Indeed. I have grown very weary of telling those people they are using an unbiblical definition of "religion."

the equating with her views with the ONE way and the TRUE way is the usual fundamentalist clap-trap that they some how have a hotline to God and have discerned the truth while all of the rest of Christianity that views things differently are awful sinners.

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Rarely will you find a fundie of that stripe who is also humble. Most are quite arrogant in how they (to the exclusion of everyone else) have the TRUE way. The rare ones that ARE humble are usually scared to death that they got it wrong in some point or other; and are thus eternally doomed. While they absolutely deny it; they live something akin to a salvation by works lifestyle.

They are part of the reason I started doing some serious study a few years ago on soteriology. And what I came up with did not seem to fit any of the standard Christian doctrinal forms: Salvation by Covenant. (think a husband and wife marriage)

This kind of "fundamentalist clap-trap" (I like that phrase!) is almost the exact opposite of that. It would mean that if my wife is not exactly, to the nth degree, the kind of person who I think she should be; I must immediately divorce her. Is that how God wants me to treat her? NO!!!

Paul says that the marriage relationship is like a picture to the world of how we as a redeemed community relate to the Lord. I give my wife a lot of leeway in being who and what she is as my wife and the mother of my kids. Of course there are things she could do that would end up breaking us up but they would be pretty drastic. If the biblical description of the Lord is any clue, I would think the same would hold true for us as well.

IMO that kind of fundamental image of God is a mean caricature.

After moving to the south, my husband decided we would attend a non-denom Christian church. While the printed motto of the church is "Christians only, but not the only Christians" the attitude was more like "We are the best if not the only Christians". It took me 6 years and a play about John Wesley to convince a friend I did not need to "convert" - that Methodists were just as Christian as members of her non-denom.
Have attended this church for about 17 years now and I am still not a member. I still see no need to be re-baptized and they still don't accept my baptism.

I walk through the valley of fundamentalism every day.

CW; you'd have loved where I was last night!

We had our community thanksgiving worship service, put on by the ministerial alliance. Fiery southern Baptist preacher preached, rather screamed. It was so awful, my wifes very first words when we got in the car was "I'm never going to be a Baptist" (she had never attended worship in anything other than a Roman Catholic or United Methodist Church). She also said she kept thinking "Wait, that's not right..." when he would quote scripture. Not only did the Pastor instruct all of those reading scripture to read only from the KJV, he also wanted us to read along in the pews but was clear if we didn't have a KJV bible with us, we were to grab one of the KJV pew bibles so we'd have "God's word".

During the sermon, he used phrases like "God said it, that settles it". Misappropriated a messianic prophesy in Isaiah to somehow mean the Bible, frequently used passages about "The Word of God", INCLUDING John 1, to refer to the Bible (not Jesus). Basically the whole sermon was about how our country is in the crapper and we need to start taking the Bible literally to fix everything, with a few things sprinkled in there about how even if life sucks we should be thankful to God because we don't deserve even what little we have to be thankful for what we've got. Including the most stomach turning phrase "If you've got cancer, be thankful to God that it's not worse, because you deserve worse".

While he didn't give any specific political or social tirades (He does during the meetings, so he's clear on his beliefs, including that all Muslims should be deported) he came close and you could see he was only JUST keeping the reigns in during this scream-fest. He made a couple hints about "letting people in" during his rants about how bad America is. He also, during the 'positive' upswings about giving thanks, said 'Give thanks that God is in charge, no matter how bad the person in the white house is'.

Oh, and the 'rotation' for hosting the Thanksgiving service was set for the UCC church. Not only did the members of the alliance decide to 'skip' it, she was the only Pastor not invited to participate. (I was asked to do the benediction. I was the only one not asked to read scripture as well. Let me tell you, I really, really wasn't comfortable at that point. Sort of a feeling that I was 'endorsing' the spewed rhetoric there. This same Pastor read scripture when I hosted it, and proudly said he was using the KJV because it's "Breathed straight from God's mouth, so that's what I use" before he read scripture at my church.)

So I 100%, wholeheartedly agree with the danger that fundamentalism creates, and we definitely have an issue around here of Fundies jumping in and telling us we've got it all wrong. Though, I'll still try to take opportunities to encourage a different way of thinking when they jump in, even though to date it's been for naught and in vain.

RomansFiveEight said:

I walk through the valley of fundamentalism every day.

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Fear no evil!


Are you sure he was SOUTHERN Baptist (as in SBC)? That sounds a lot more like either Fundamental Baptist or Fundamentalist Baptist. (2 different groups but very similar) SBC is not nearly that rabid for the most part (I suppose there may be exceptions) which is why the 2 fundy groups consider them to be liberal apostates.

Oh - and the SBC widely uses the HCSB, not so much the KJV.

Here is a quote from a website of fundamentalist baptists:

The doctrine of "Biblical Separation" is a doctrine which most Baptists and others shun today. Biblical Separation is a doctrine ("teaching") strongly disliked by New-Evangelicals. New Evangelicalism split away from Evangelical Fundamentalism around 1950, mostly over this issue of Biblical Separation. New Evangelicals did not want to remain separated from apostates and wanted to "dialogue" with those who rejected historical evangelical truth. The leading proponent for New Evangelicalism at time was Billy Graham. During the last sixty years or so since that time, Fundamentalism has mostly died out across America, being replaced by New Evangelicalism.

One sub-class within New Evangelicalism is called "Pseudo-Fundamentalism". Pseudo-Fundamentalists, such as the late Jerry Falwell, liked to call themselves "Fundamentalists", but were just New Evangelicals trying to pass themselves off as Fundamentalists. These "wolves in sheep's clothing" Pseudo-Fundamentalists reject either Biblical Separation or Christian Militancy -- and usually both. Because of their cooperation with The Great Roman Catholic harlot, Pseudo-Fundamentalist Baptists and other New Evangelical Baptists are also referred to as "Bapticatholics". Bapticatholics are Baptists who work to support the Pope, and/or Roman Catholicism in some way.

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I can link the page if you ask, but am hesitant to do so. Their venom can be toxic.......

DaveW-Ohev said:

Fear no evil!


Are you sure he was SOUTHERN Baptist (as in SBC)? That sounds a lot more like either Fundamental Baptist or Fundamentalist Baptist. (2 different groups but very similar) SBC is not nearly that rabid for the most part (I suppose there may be exceptions) which is why the 2 fundy groups consider them to be liberal apostates.

Oh - and the SBC widely uses the HCSB, not so much the KJV.

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I grew up in the SBC. It is far more conservative than it was in my youth. After they decided women were second class citizens and started promoting the newbie theory of Biblical inerrancy you started to see Independent and Fundamentalist Baptists have more connections with and in the SBC. Note the Jerry Falwell became a Southern Baptist after the fundamentalist shift of the 1980s in the SBC.

Yeah, we were ushered into a classroom to be 'prayed in' prior to the service and I noticed the LifeWay (unofficial/official publishing arm of the SBC) sunday school books were in HCSB, and there was a stack of KJV and NKJV bibles on the table. Based on his own comments, I suspect him to be a KJV-onlyist; but I realize that is not the theology of the SBC.

I grew up SBC and, in this area, fundamentalism and the SBC seem to go hand in hand. You can't be conservative enough out here. Folks have left the large "first" SBC because they weren't fundamentalist ENOUGH. Some of the splits occured, for example, over demands that they oust a divorced woman from membership, and none of those split-offs will join the Ministerial Alliance so long as it doesn't shun any churches that aren't fundamentalist.

The SBC in other areas may be more tame, and the larger churches sometimes are, but this small rabidly fundamentalist church is SBC in name only.

He's a strange fellow. A soft-spoken nice guy. Usually. He preaches with fists clenching the pulpit screaming, the ENTIRE time. I wouldn't still have a voice if I preached like him. And I MEAN screaming. At ministerial alliance meetings, when the female UCC Pastor isn't there, he takes time to go on tirades about women in ministry. He frequently bashes anyone who isn't a white evangelical Christian at those meetings. Largely, it goes unchecked. The only non-fundies (myself and the UCC Pastor) left who haven't quit the alliance don't speak up, and he's cheered on by the other fundies.

It's a strange dynamic. But it works. I read today a description of extremism, that said it requires creating an 'enemy'. And the bigger the list of 'enemies' is, the better one feels about themselves. Total devotion to a set of very specific beliefs with no grey area, and anyone who doesn't believe exactly that is indeed the enemy, should be vilified, and is out to get you. I suspect the same thing that attracts violent extremists to organizations like ISIS is what attracts some Christians to fundamentalist congregations.

RFiveEight you are a lot more tolerant than I am. I couldn't stay in your minister's association.

circuitrider said:

RFiveEight you are a lot more tolerant than I am. I couldn't stay in your minister's association.

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They do good work, despite themselves. And despite constant nasty comments about the people RECEIVING the help, calling them lazy, etc., they do have a fund that is supported by events like these community worship experiences (that take an offering) that we call the "Good Samaritan" fund. In addition to helping fund a local homeless shelter (that shelter is the primary reason I work with the M.A.), it also provides a fund that the police department has access to that helps take care of stranded travelers. We're right off of the interstate, and several times a year, the police respond to a desparate traveler with a broken down car. The police have access to a fund that we 'replenish' that will put them up at a local hotel at an agreed discounted rate, and is sometimes used to get them alternative travel, like a bus ticket. Additionally, we provide emergency relief for things like utility bills, etc. So I am a part of the association because of those ministries. My patience is thin though. Our church is the largest financial supporter of those ministries.

We have not had a minister's association for some time in my community. But recently a group of us in our part of the city have decided to start meeting together. I'm pleased that we are having an ecumenical Thanksgiving service tonight at one of the local ELCA churches in town.

There will be five pastors involved in the service which will include communion officiated by the ELCA pastor and served by all five of us. The group includes Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Episcopalians. I would like to see yet wider representation. But we've not gotten interest from some of the other churches who don't have a history of ecumanism.

Part of the problem is that we just don't have any mainline representation. There's two of us; the UCC and the UMC, who are involved. There is a Nazarene church, but he isn't involved at all. But we don't have any ELCA, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc. presence here in this community. There are 20 churches, which include one Roman Catholic (does not participate), one Nazarene (does not participate), one UCC, one UMC, one LCMS (served by a Pastor who fits in very well with the fundies), and 15 fundamentalist derivative churches, many very small and split-offs from First Baptist.

No Assy of God? No Church of God? No Holiness Church? (pentecostal or otherwise)

No Church of Christ or Christian Church? (but I would not expect them to participate either)

RomansFiveEight said:

Part of the problem is that we just don't have any mainline representation. There's two of us; the UCC and the UMC, who are involved. There is a Nazarene church, but he isn't involved at all. But we don't have any ELCA, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc. presence here in this community. There are 20 churches, which include one Roman Catholic (does not participate), one Nazarene (does not participate), one UCC, one UMC, one LCMS (served by a Pastor who fits in very well with the fundies), and 15 fundamentalist derivative churches, many very small and split-offs from First Baptist.

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We started this in our neighborhood. We do have some fundamentalist churches in the area but they've tended not to show interest in collaboration. In our area the three largest Protestant representation is Lutheran and Methodist.

DaveW-Ohev said:

No Assy of God? No Church of God? No Holiness Church? (pentecostal or otherwise)

No Church of Christ or Christian Church? (but I would not expect them to participate either)

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Nope.

Most of the churches are a part of no denomination and their theology is primarily fundamentalist. Again, they are split-offs from First Baptist. Once every 3 to 4 years someone at First Baptist gets mad and starts their own church. It's so comically predictable even the Pastor of First Baptist jokes about it. "We're due for another split I think, so things could change" he joked at one meeting. Most of the splits are because the Pastor wasn't hard-nosed enough about something. One of their splits actually involved my church. We had a gay couple attending with their kids and they wanted First Baptist to cut all ties with us and wanted us kicked out of the ministerial alliance for "allowing" it. When the Pastor didn't oblige, a vacant place in a strip mall was rented and another church was born. These are primarily led by bi-vocational uneducated laypeople serving as Pastors.

The only ordained or licensed Pastors in the community are at the SBC, "First" SBC (two churches are actually SBC, the others, though similar, are not a part of the association), UMC, UCC, LCMS, Nazarene and RCC, and one other "Baptist" church (not a part of any association but has 'Baptist' in the name) but amongst their "constitution" is that they may not participate in any community or ministerial alliance events. They are one of those churches that believes they have the whole truth and anyone who doesn't go there has less truth, thus they won't associate. The LCMS has the same stance actually (associations and ecumenical events are verbotten), but the Pastor of that church is older, nearing retirement, and just doesn't care. So he participates.

The majority of those 20 churches are tiny churches meeting in old buildings, strip malls, or homes. Again, splinter groups. And yes, it's an ecumenical desert. Very little represented out here. Church attendance in the community is low.

DaveW-Ohev said:

No Assy of God? No Church of God? No Holiness Church? (pentecostal or otherwise)

No Church of Christ or Christian Church? (but I would not expect them to participate either)

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I'm sure there are some Pentecostal churches in the area. But they are very small. None in my my part of the city. I'm not aware of any Church of God or Assembly of God churches in the area.

I'm in the upper Midwest in a part of my state that is largely Roman Catholic, Reformed Church, Lutheran and Methodist.

And I am sure there would be no Messianic groups, either.

Is there a Jewish population in either of your areas?

circuitrider said:

We started this in our neighborhood. We do have some fundamentalist churches in the area but they've tended not to show interest in collaboration. In our area the three largest Protestant representation is Lutheran and Methodist.

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The UCC church and I are doing our own thing.

So here's the long story short; 4 years ago, the UCC church, who themselves affirms their denominations "progressive voice" (i.e, they make no qualms about their denominations stance on certain issues) hired a gay Pastor. It was such a big fiasco, involving protests and kicking them out of the association and not letting their kids play softball with the association softball league, that it garnered attention from local and national news organizations. If you "google" that church you have to go through several news story links before you get to their website. The Pastor decided to leave on his own accord, and 4 years later (now) they finally got a new Pastor.

When she arrived I invited her to lunch to introduce her to the community and discovered she and I share an appreciation for liturgy, and we hatched up a plan to do a vespers service in advent, combined. We'll likely continue doing things like that. While we'll participate with the Ministerial Alliance for their things, we'll continue to do our own thing as well. Sort of our own Mainline Protestant alliance, even if it's just the two of us. Both churches are really looking forward to this.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Is there a Jewish population in either of your areas?

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Yes, and I can even tell you his name!

I serve a very small, rural, 99.7% white community. There's little diversity. Close knit, the church population is the 50+ crowd, folks younger than that are generally nominally Christian or nothing at all.

DaveW-Ohev said:

And I am sure there would be no Messianic groups, either.

Is there a Jewish population in either of your areas?

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Yes, there is one Jewish congregation in the area.

RomansFiveEight said:

Yes, and I can even tell you his name!

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LOL!!! That certainly does not constitute a minion. (10 adult Jewish males) that is the minimum size to carry on synagogue liturgy.

If you like liturgy, you should attend a Jewish service (probably from a Reformed Synagogue as usually the liturgy is in english) to get a feel of the source of early Christian liturgy.

In reality, the orthodox or conservative services are a much better reflection of the ancient liturgy; but (depending on the congregation) if you are not well versed in Hebrew, you would be completely lost. Some have prayer books that have Hebrew translations (some even have transliterations - the Hebrew spelled out in English lettering) but not all. And not all synagogues use the same pronunciation system. Most old line Orthodox and Conservative use Ashkenazic (from central/eastern Europe) while some Modern Orthodox, some Conservative and almost all Reform (if they use Hebrew at all) use Sephardic (from around the Mediterranean). Big difference.