Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

Der Alter said:

<Jas>People of the Christian faith who celebrate Christmas would even disagree with you on this one (Including Pat Robertson). They believe all these things are pagan and they basically are saying they don't care. History channel, Catholic encyclopedia, etc., etc. all testify to the pagan things in Christmas. Most simply do not care and celebrate it anyways because they like the gift exchanging aspect of it with their family. For most people who celebrate Christmas: Jesus has very little to nothing to do with the reason why the celebrate this holiday.<end>
I don't really care what a lot of people say. This ain't the Kavanaugh hearing. What I want to see is credible, verifiable, historical evidence which clearly shows that something pagan was deliberately incorporated into Christian practice. That would be something written at or near the time of the events by a participant or direct observer.

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Mass. Think. Mass. Christmas. Christ mass.
The mass of Christ.
Do you celebrate the mass?
In other words, it's a Catholic holiday!!!

Why else do you think the Catholic sources say that they created this holiday in recent history?
They are not the only source, either.
There are those who were not a part of the Catholic church who were against the celebration of Christmas and they attributed this holiday to Rome.

To say that both a friend of Christmas and an enemy of Christmas are both in on the conspiracy that Christmas does not have pagan elements in it, is bit of reach if you ask me.

Anyways, in my next post are some sources that come from general Encyclopedias that should hopefully help you.

May God's blessings be upon you today.

Eloy Craft said:

You are thinking what isn't true defines what is true. Get that obstacle removed.

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Please stop talking in riddles.
Just tell it to me straight what you are getting at, my friend.

Anyways, please see my next post and read it in it's entirety.
They are sources from real Encyclopedias.
Yes, it talks about the trees and how they are pagan.

Der Alter said:

<Jas>People of the Christian faith who celebrate Christmas would even disagree with you on this one (Including Pat Robertson). They believe all these things are pagan and they basically are saying they don't care. History channel, Catholic encyclopedia, etc., etc. all testify to the pagan things in Christmas. Most simply do not care and celebrate it anyways because they like the gift exchanging aspect of it with their family. For most people who celebrate Christmas: Jesus has very little to nothing to do with the reason why the celebrate this holiday.<end>
I don't really care what a lot of people say. This ain't the Kavanaugh hearing. What I want to see is credible, verifiable, historical evidence which clearly shows that something pagan was deliberately incorporated into Christian practice. That would be something written at or near the time of the events by a participant or direct observer.

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Here are some Encyclopedias:

New World Encyclopedia

"During the Reformation, Protestants condemned Christmas celebration as "trappings of popery" and the "rags of the Beast." The Catholic Church responded by promoting the festival in a more religiously oriented form. When a Puritan parliament triumphed over the King, Charles I of England (1644), Christmas was officially banned (1647)."

Source:
Christmas - New World Encyclopedia

Encyclopedia Britannica

"...Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church...." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 edition

Encyclopedia Americana

"Christmas... It was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons [eg Passover - death of Christ] rather than their birth..." "...A feast was established in memory of this event [the assumed birth of Jesus] in the fourth century. In the fifth century the Western Church ordered it to be celebrated forever ON THE DAY OF THE OLD ROMAN FEAST OF THE BIRTH OF SOL [SUN], as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed." Emphasis added. -Encyclopedia Americana, 1944 Edition

The Encyclopedia Americana International Edition

"The idea of using evergreens at Christmas also came to England from pre-Christian northern European beliefs. Celtic and Teutonic tribes honored these plants at their winter solstice festivals as symbolic of eternal life, and the Druids ascribed magical properties to the mistletoe in particular." [The Encyclopedia Americana International Edition. New York: Grolier, 1991. p666.]

Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia

"How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia [December 25] following the Saturnalia [December 17-24], and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the 'new sun'...cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence...The pagan festival with its riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ's birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mespoptamia accused their Western brethren of idolatry and sun worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival." (New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, article "Christmas")

Catholic Encyclopedia

"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church...the first evidence of the feast is from Egypt." "Pagan customs centering around the January calendars gravitated to Christmas." "...In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his [Jesus] birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world" -Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 Edition, published by the Roman Catholic Church

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The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian) because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun)."

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The well-known solar feast of Natalis Invicti,'the Nativity of the Unconquered Sun,' celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date," (Catholic Encyclopedia, vol.3, p.727, article, "Christmas.")

The Cambridge Encyclopedia.

"The practice of celebrating Christmas on 25 December began in the Western Church early in the 4th-c; it was a Christian substitute for the pagan festival held on that date to celebrate the birth of the unconquered sun." [The Cambridge Encyclopedia. New York: Cambridge University Press, 990. p257.]

Chambers's Encyclopædia

"When Christianity spread northwards it encountered a similar pagan festival [to Saturnalia], also held at the winter solstice, the great Yule-feast of the Norsemen. Once again Christmas absorbed heathen customs. From these various sources come the Yule log, the Christmas tree, introduced into England from Germany and first mentioned in 1789, the decorating of houses with mistletoe and holly and churches with evergreens, especially holly and ivy, as well as the provision of a feast." [Chambers's Encyclopædia. London: International Learning Systems, 1973. p538.]

Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible

"Gradually a number of prevailing practices of the [heathen] nations into which Christ came were assimilated and were combined with the religious ceremonies surrounding Christmas. The assimilation of such practices generally represented efforts by Christians to transform or absorb otherwise pagan practices." (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Volume 1, page 805)

Everymans Encyclopedia

"The practice of decorating houses and churches is pagan in its origin, and the mistletoe so widely used for that purpose was the sacred plant of the Druids." [Everymans Encyclopedia. Toronto: Ryerson Press, 1967. p1,672.]

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"The Roman festival of the winter solstice was celebrated on 25 Dec. (dies natalis solis invictus). The Celtic and Germanic tribes held this season in veneration from the earliest times, and the Norsemen believed that their dieties were present and active on earth from 25 Dec. to 6 Jan." [Everymans Encyclopedia. Toronto: Ryerson Press, 1967. p1,672.]

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"The custom of presenting friends with gifts at Christmas dates back to the time of the ancient Romans." [Everymans Encyclopedia. Toronto: Ryerson Press, 1967. p1,672.]

MSN Encarta Encyclopedia

"Scholars believe that the festival is derived in part from rites held by pre-Christian Germanic and Celtic peoples to celebrate the winter solstice. Christmas festivals have been observed by Christians since the 4th century and incorporate many pagan customs, such as the use of holly and mistletoe" (MSN Encarta Encyclopedia (online), Concise Edition, article: Christmas)

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"... most scholars believe that Christmas originated in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice. Before the introduction of Christmas, each year beginning on December 17 Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, in a festival called Saturnalia. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter solstice, which usually occurred around December 25 on the ancient Julian calendar. During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, exchanged gifts, and temporarily freed their slaves. Many Romans also celebrated the lengthening of daylight following the winter solstice by participating in rituals to glorify Mithra, the ancient Persian god of light (see Mithraism). These and other winter festivities continued through January 1, the festival of Kalends, when Romans marked the day of the new moon and the first day of the month and year.

Although the Gospels describe Jesus' birth in detail, they never mention the date, so historians do not know on what date he was born. The Roman Catholic Church chose December 25 as the day for the Feast of the Nativity in order to give Christian meaning to existing pagan rituals. For example, the Church replaced festivities honoring the birth of Mithra, the god of light, with festivities to commemorate the birth of Jesus, whom the Bible calls the light of the world. The Catholic Church hoped to draw pagans into its religion by allowing them to continue their revelry while simultaneously honoring the birthday of Jesus. ...

Over the next 1000 years, the observance of Christmas followed the expansion of Christianity into the rest of Europe and into Egypt. Along the way, Christian beliefs combined with existing pagan feasts and winter rituals to create many long-standing traditions of Christmas celebrations. For example, ancient Europeans believed that the mistletoe plant held magic powers to bestow life and fertility, to bring about peace, and to protect against disease. Northern Europeans associated the plant with the Norse goddess of love, Freya, and developed the custom of kissing underneath mistletoe branches. Christians incorporated this custom into their Christmas celebrations, and kissing under a mistletoe branch eventually became a part of secular Christmas tradition." (MSN Encarta Encyclopedia (online), Deluxe Edition, article: Christmas, section II: Origins of Christmas)

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"During the Reformation of the 16th century, Protestants challenged the authority of the Catholic Church, including its toleration of surviving pagan traditions during Christmas festivities. For a brief time during the 17th century, Puritans banned Christmas in England and in some English colonies in North America because they felt it had become a season best known for gambling, flamboyant public behavior, and overindulgence in food and drink.

....Colonists from England, France, Holland, Spain, and other countries also gradually modified their Christmas ceremonies as they encountered new cultures and traditions in the New World. For example, in large towns, where diverse groups lived close together, the common ground for celebration could often be found in public and secular festivities rather than in potentially divisive religious ceremonies. Thus, at least in New York City, the winter's holidays often culminated on New Year's, not Christmas." (MSN Encarta Encyclopedia (online), Deluxe Edition, article: Christmas, section II: Origins of Christmas)

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"In the United States and Canada, many elements of modern Christmas celebrations did not emerge until the 19th century. Before then Christmas had been an ordinary workday in many communities, particularly in New England, where early Puritan objections to Christmas celebrations remained highly influential. Among some groups, Christmas was an especially boisterous event, characterized by huge feasts, drunkenness, and raucous public revelry. In an English tradition that survived in some parts of North America, Christmas revelers would dress in costume and progress from door to door to receive gifts of food and drink. Most holiday gifts were limited to small amounts of money and modest presents passed from the wealthy to the poor and from masters to their servants. Families almost never exchanged Christmas gifts among themselves.

....Christmas gained increased prominence largely because many people believed it could draw families together and honor children. Giving gifts to children and loved ones eventually replaced the raucous public celebrations of the past, and Christmas became primarily a domestic holiday. (MSN Encarta Encyclopedia (online), Deluxe Edition, article: Christmas, section II: Origins of Christmas)

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"The Bible provides no guidelines that explain how Christmas should be observed, nor does it even suggest that it should be considered a religious holiday. Because of the lack of biblical instructions, Christmas rituals have been shaped by the religious and popular traditions of each culture that celebrates the holiday....Christmas observances have also assimilated remnants of ancient midwinter rituals that celebrate the returning light of the sun following the winter solstice. For example, many cultures continue the pre-Christian custom of burning Yule logs during the midwinter season; the Yule log symbolizes the victory of light over the darkness of winter. The tradition of lighting the Yule log is still observed, especially by Europeans. Families light the log on Christmas Eve and keep it burning until Epiphany. Some families save the remains of the Yule log to help kindle the fire the following year. According to ancient tradition, the ashes provide protection against bad luck during the year.

"During the Christmas season Italians perform music at shrines of the Virgin Mary. They also play songs at the homes of carpenters in honor of Saint Joseph, who was a carpenter. On Christmas Eve, after a day of fasting, Italians enjoy a feast of eels and a spaghetti dish with anchovies called cennone. Santa Claus is not a prominent figure in Italian folklore. Instead, Italian children wait for La Befana, a good witch who rides her broom to their homes on Epiphany to distribute gifts. According to folk belief, La Befana—whose name refers to the word Epifania (Epiphany)—was too busy to accompany the Three Wise Men on their journey to visit the infant Jesus in Bethlehem. Now, to atone for her failing, she visits all good children, leaving treats. She also visits bad children and leaves them lumps of coal or bags of ash. (MSN Encarta Encyclopedia (online), Deluxe Edition, article: Christmas, section VII: Around the World, B: Among Roman Catholics, 1: In Italy)

Heavenhome said:

Jason I am with you 100%.
My story would be a long one but suffice to say that I decided to simply follow what we are told to do in the Bible and to follow as closely as possible to the first Christians.
I used to love Christmas but somehow after becoming a Christian (30 or so Years ago) it was just somehow lacking, I still went along with it all but somehow especially after someone pointed out a few things ( such as the things that simply didn't happen ie the wise men at the stable etc).It has only been a few years that I have cut myself off from every bit of it ( and prayed) I finally feel free from the hold it had on me.
I don't mind if I am thought to be a legalist, I have to be true and obedient to God and that is all that matters.
Is it hard to go against what millions do?
Yes and no.

I still can't get people to understand or accept my view which is sometimes hard but it is easy to say God, not my will but thine be done.

God bless you Jason for your sharing and to all others in Christ

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Thank you for your words.
They are an encouragement to me.
This will be my first year of not celebrating Christmas.
For me: This was a recent revelation to me by God's Word and other historical sources.

Bobber said:

Well Christmas isn't something the Lord instituted for men to observe like communion but I don't think he minds people having fun and some enjoyment for this day of the year. It makes families happy, actually brings them together for interaction. Oh one can provide a list of worshiping trees which I don't think one can really say modern culture decorating a Christmas tree is worshiping the tree.

Can't recall the last time I asked a tree to bless me and mine, never, ever, ever. Decorating a tree in a home is no different than having nice plants in the home. Christmas to the world breaks up the boredom of the year and makes life interesting, adds some color to life and give people something to look forward to.

As for it being materialistic well sure it can be but we've always concluded that Christmas time is when new clothes for the year or part of the year are bought...one would have to buy them anyway if you didn't have Christmas. As for all the pagan aspects...well....I just don't buy it that Christians really having a tree, sending out cards, having a family meal is something the Lord finds unacceptable.

Also making a big deal of these things in opposition I think it's majoring in the minors. I remember in the work world ( I'm retired now) but fellow workers who were Christians getting together at lunch times for fellowship. I can't tell you how many times it upset me to see all they wanted to talk about was the subject should Christians take our their kids on Halloween.

So they spend 365 days of year talking about a one day event that only lasts a couple of hours. All those 365 days of the years I wish they would have talked about our inheritance In Christ and our mission to win the lost and the like. But no...wasted time majoring in a minor.

I enjoy Jason many of your posts on this site. I think you are well informed and intelligent. On this theme though I think I'll have a different opinion. Always will look forward to read your other writings though.

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Hello Bobber.

Thank you for saying you enjoy my other posts.
This for me is a recent revelation or conviction after looking at certain verses in Scripture. Before, I could not see it. I suppose what it boils down to is that I want less of this world and what it has to offer and more of Christ and His good ways. Besides the mention of Christ's birth alone on this holiday, I see nothing of the teachings of Jesus Christ in this holiday and the fruits thereof. Jesus said we can know a tree by it's fruit. I believe we can test all things to see if they are true or not. While there does appear to be some good things in Christmas, like family getting together, I see more bad that outweighs this one thing. The holiday focuses heavily on how you must give and you will also receive, too. On this holiday, you feel compelled to give. 2 Corinthians 9:7 says we are to not give under compulsion or obligation but we are to give what God has purposed in our hearts to give. Big money is made on this holiday and lots of people get hurt on Black Friday for Christmas and some go into financial debt. They spend what they do not have under compulsion that they have to buy tons of gifts to compete with the giving of other family members. Jesus has a different form of giving taught to us in Luke 6 and Luke 14. Also, in a recent post of mine, I have supplied a source of encyclopedias that talk about Christmas and it's pagan origins (See my post here). If I am to honor Christ, using things that were said to be of pagan origin is not how I want to honor Him. I want to be as far from anything pagan, even if it does not appear like I am directly worshiping that thing. In other words, I would not buy a statue of Mary because I know that is associated with the Catholic church and their praying to her. Even if Catholicism no longer existed in the future, I would still never take up a Mary statue because of it's unbiblical origins. See what I mean?

Anyways, whether you agree with me or not, that's okay.
All I can do is ask you to pray, seek the Scriptures and research more about Christmas on your own.

May God bless you, Bobber;
And may you please be well in the Lord.

Daniel Marsh said:

When I see ... I wonder what was left out of the quote. New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. III: Chamier - Draendorf - Christian Classics Ethereal Library




I do not take those Encyclopedia entries as serious scholarship.

"As Ehrman writes, “We know very little about mystery religions – the whole point of mystery religions is that they’re secret! So I think it’s crazy to build on ignorance in order to make a claim like this.”"23 Reasons Why Scholars Know Jesus Is Not A Copy Of Pagan Religions.

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I am not saying that every single thing written is going to be accurate in every single Encyclopedia. I am sure many Encyclopedias have some inaccurate information in them. But if they are all saying the same thing in regards to Christmas in the majority of Encyclopedias, then that means something. To top it off, the name Christmas itself sounds Catholic. Christ mass. The mass of Christ. Think about it. Do you celebrate the mass?

Daniel Marsh said:

Shattering the Christ Myth (Tekton Building Blocks) Paperback – June 27, 2008
by James Patrick Holding

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Unbelievers can record inaccurate information and accurate information. Just because they espouse false information in one area, does not mean everything else they say is false. For example: The word "dog" in an encyclopedia I am sure is pretty accurate. You really cannot mess up that one because we can observe dogs in the here and now. Jesus is attacked simply because people do not like Him and His Word. So it makes sense that such attacks are false even if they do record other things in history that may be accurate.

Kerensa said:

Mate, by all means don't celebrate Christmas if you find it materialistic and non-Biblical and "pagan". Nobody is forcing you to celebrate it (or not), nor will they ever. But could you PLEASE leave out the senseless and gratuitous attacks on Catholic Christians??

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I am not attacking them. I am just saying if you are not Catholic, then you should not celebrate Christmas. I am merely associating Christmas with Catholicism and I do not see that as being any problem by saying that. Now, if I were to point out bad things within Catholicism by the hand of my own writing (by saying this RCC practice is bad, etc. etc. and they need to repent), then that would be another story; But I have not done that.

You said:

I'm not Catholic myself, but as far as I understand it, these forums are open to ALL types of Christians (and interested non-Christians as well). Which means that insinuating that people of a particular denomination are not "real" Christians, just because you disagree with their theology or practices, is not on. It also has absolutely zilch to do with Christmas in and of itself. The vast majority of Protestant Christians celebrate Christmas as well, have you ever noticed? And as I think I said before, it's highly unlikely we're all headed for hell just because of that.

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You are using words that I did not specifically say. Nowhere did I specifically say that they are going to hell. While I keep it to myself now on the spiritual status of the Catholic church because speaking out against the RCC does not go too well over here at CF, I am not condemning them to flames by my own words within this thread. While I do not agree with the Catholic practices and I believe a person should follow the Bible alone instead, I never said the things that you are saying here. If I have, I would be happy to edit my posts so as to keep the peace.

Kerensa said:

You have, actually. When I stood up for Catholics once before in this thread, you sarcastically asked me if I believe in praying to Mary and the saints. It's bore obvious that you despise Catholicism and one of the reasons you've recently decided Christmas is an abomination is because it was invented by the Catholics and even "sounds Catholic".

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Not at all. I was merely trying to find out what you believe.

You said:

No, you didn't (and I never said you did) — that was a bit of sarcasm on my part. My point is, you are going on and on and on and on about the supposed evils of Christmas as if it genuinely is a matter of heaven or hell. It's not. That's all.

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While I could be wrong, I don't believe that celebrating Christmas is a salvation issue in most cases; But I believe it can be if the believer gets caught up in the materialism aspect of it to a point where they would want to punch others to get a TV or something on Black Friday. I am not God to know the hearts and actions of every Christian who regards this day.
All I can do is point to the problems within the holiday by showing you it's fruits and practices in light of God's Word.

Kerensa said:

That's news, since just about every post from you in this thread has essentially carried the message that no matter how many Christians profess to celebrate Christmas for good reasons, the day itself is so inherently bad and wrong that it cannot ever stand for anything good or Christly.

As others have pointed out repeatedly, you keep taking your own monstrous conception of Christmas and insisting that this is what Christmas IS and projecting it onto everyone who celebrates Christmas, no matter what reasons they give for celebrating Christmas. That's the inherent problem with your whole argument. You may decide for yourself that Christmas is not good and therefore you won't celebrate it. You don't get to decide what Christmas means for everyone else.

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Please address the content of the topic of this thread and not me, the poster.
Stick to Scripture and or historical evidence that proves your case on this topic.
Do not make it about me.
I am just sharing to people here my belief and conviction with God's Word.
If you don't agree, then prove your case with Scripture.
But do not make this thread about me.
It is not about me.
If you believe I said something offensive specifically, then please point me to the post # and I would be happy to reword it.

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

Kerensa said:

Then why is it called "Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical"?

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May God bless you, Kerensa.
I will only reply to your posts if you have something to offer in regards to the actual topic of the thread with Scripture and or historical evidences.
If you continue to try and make it about me, I will not reply.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.