Why has G-d allowed Moschiach to be abused for 2,000 years?

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

I have seen, at several Catholic sites, a question that goes something like this:

"If the Catholic Church was not the True Church, and Martin Luther did in fact re-instate the true Church, then why would G-d have allowed the Church to be absent from the world for over a thousand years?"

That may not be a good paraphrase, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Well, my question is similar. I believe that those who followed Yeshua took a very big wrong turn somewhere and ended up being a religion that demonized and murdered Jews (and others) for over a thousand years.
I see how Messianic Jews are trying to reclaim what might have been true 1st Century "Christianity."

But, assuming that Messianic Judaism is the answer, why would G-d have sent a Moschiach, and then allowed his teachings to be perverted and used as a hammer with which to beat the Jews for over almost two thousand years? Why wait until only recently to allow Messianic Judaism to start to spread and try to undo the atrocities committed in the name of G-d and his Moschiach??

ShirChadash · Mar 17, 2004

Quick answer... there has always been a remnant who believed in Yeshua, Morry Always. And in keeping with the suffering of Jews throughout time, why would a Jewish Messiah be any different Humans have free-will, and the minute you take Jew out of Yeshua, and Judaism out of Yeshua, and replace it with a faith from man's ideas... well error will happen.

Seriously, may not be a very good answer... but it just occured to me quick. I'm sure someone better qualified to answer your question will come along, but I offer you my thoughts with much love and respect, in the meantime.

simchat_torah · Mar 17, 2004

Mordechai,

Might I play devil's advocate here?

The question proposed is...

Why has G-d allowed Moschiach to be abused for 2,000 years?

Of course, reading your mind (I do have that ability ) your answer would be because this is the wrong messiah.

However, if you don't mind, I might propose a different question, under the same line of reasoning:
Why has G-d allowed his Chosen People to be abused for over 2,000 years?

Does this mean the Jews are the wrong 'chosen people'? Of course not.

Now, I do have an answer for you concerning the Moshiach, but I merely wanted to point out, before answering the question, that the logic the question itself is based upon is flawed.

Shalom!
yafet

Hix · Mar 17, 2004

Well being the chosen people DOES mean that they receive punishment for the sins of the world, as per Isaiah 53 achi

Im not quite sure what the answer really is, suffice it to say that HaShem always keeps a remnant to carry his truth all the same. Il let someone more knowlegable such as yourself answer this one Yafet chaver

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Of course, reading your mind (I do have that ability ) your answer would be because this is the wrong messiah.

Actually, that's not my answer at all. Remember: I am not here to argue the Jewish side of things, but rather to investigate just what this whole Yehsua thing is all about - as a seeker, not as a Jewish apologist. And remember that I'm not allowed to debate in this forum, anyway!

simchat_torah said:
However, if you don't mind, I might propose a different question, under the same line of reasoning:
Why has G-d allowed his Chosen People to be abused for over 2,000 years?

It can, and has been, argued that G-d has punished and is punishing the Jewish people for their disobedience. As much as my love is for Israel and as much as I am a Zionist, it breaks my heart to see that nation run farther and farther from G-d and Torah.

simchat_torah said:
the logic the question itself is based upon is flawed.

Thank you for your reply, chaver. But I do not think that the logic is flawed.
Bear with me, for I may just be mired in my own ignorance.
It is the belief that Yeshua was sent as Moschiach, to remedy a bad situation as regards the Jews of the time, their practice, and maybe (this is my theory) to prepare them for the impending loss of the Beit HaMikdash, am I mostly correct here?
So, we see a very active hand of G-d in Israel's history (again), a very active role in reforming Judaism and pointing it in a new direction (not eradicating it).
However, within a few hundred years, this new direction given us by G-d has trinitarian beliefs, Sunday worship, persecution of Jews, eradication of Torah observance, etc.
It might (and has been, by some) be concluded that after taking such a direct hand in the establishment of Yeshua as Moschiach, G-d let everything pretty much go to heck in a handbasket until the 20th century.
Why would this be? I feel like maybe G-d really dropped the ball on this one. :o

simchat_torah · Mar 17, 2004

Shalom Mordechai,

I'm not sure if you missed where I was headed with my previous post, or if I didn't make myself clear. Your argument, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is that if Y'shua was/is the messiah, then why did G-d abandon him? Obviously G-d hasn't "dropped the ball" because he is perfect in all his ways. Yet, there is a rather obvious flaw in believing Y'shua is the messiah.

The obvious conclusion? Y'shua is not the messiah. If that is not what you intended to say, I'd be inclinded to say it was at least a subconscious motivation for asking the question.

I was merely showing that this need not be the 'obvious' conclusion as similar concepts can be drawn for Israel. I am leaving work very very shortly, and I do in fact have a nice little answer prepared for you (in my mind), but I don't have the time to put it up now... So you'll just have to wait.

it breaks my heart to see that nation run farther and farther from G-d and Torah.

I can't tell you how much I agree with you achi. To see the Jews breaking the marriage vows pains my heart.

I can't express enough how much this pains me that the chosen bride has decided to break the marriage bonds....

shalom,
yafet

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

Thank you, Simchat Torah.
I eagerly await your next post. (No sarcasm intended.)

I supposed the force behind my question would be, "Please tell me why things are not what they seem." In other words, "Convince me, because I want to be convinced."

I can only resolve my own doubts by raising them here in this forum with all of its knowledgable people, where they can be addressed, rather than allowing myself to avoid them.

simchat_torah · Mar 17, 2004

I supposed the force behind my question would be, "Please tell me why things are not what they seem." In other words, "Convince me, because I want to be convinced."

I know achi... you have a good heart. I know you're not here merely to cause and stir up trouble. I know you are earnest in your questions.

simchat_torah · Mar 17, 2004

Unfortunately, Mordechai, something terribly big has come up tongiht and I doubt I'll be able to provide you with my reply (don't worry, its still coming ).

Actually, what took place this evening is somewhat wondeful news, I finally got the job I've been dying to get at the University. But this announcement belongs elsewhere...

my point---> I'll be replying hopefully tommorow.

shalom achi,
yafet

Mordechai18 · Mar 17, 2004

No worries, Simchat - congratulations! Mazel tov!

mylene · Mar 18, 2004

Mordechai18 said:
Actually, that's not my answer at all. Remember: I am not here to argue the Jewish side of things, but rather to investigate just what this whole Yehsua thing is all about - as a seeker, not as a Jewish apologist. And remember that I'm not allowed to debate in this forum, anyway!

It can, and has been, argued that G-d has punished and is punishing the Jewish people for their disobedience. As much as my love is for Israel and as much as I am a Zionist, it breaks my heart to see that nation run farther and farther from G-d and Torah.

Thank you for your reply, chaver. But I do not think that the logic is flawed.
Bear with me, for I may just be mired in my own ignorance.
It is the belief that Yeshua was sent as Moschiach, to remedy a bad situation as regards the Jews of the time, their practice, and maybe (this is my theory) to prepare them for the impending loss of the Beit HaMikdash, am I mostly correct here?
So, we see a very active hand of G-d in Israel's history (again), a very active role in reforming Judaism and pointing it in a new direction (not eradicating it).
However, within a few hundred years, this new direction given us by G-d has trinitarian beliefs, Sunday worship, persecution of Jews, eradication of Torah observance, etc.
It might (and has been, by some) be concluded that after taking such a direct hand in the establishment of Yeshua as Moschiach, G-d let everything pretty much go to heck in a handbasket until the 20th century.
Why would this be? I feel like maybe G-d really dropped the ball on this one. :o

Your post is indeed very interesting and the questions as well.

However, you made an assumption about G-d allowing people to do

what they wanted regarding the errors in Christianity etc.

Human error regarding religious deviation is the fault of humans and we have been left to choose good over evil.... but human weakness led to the entire

Christian corruption that took place from 200AD onwards.

CHRISTIANITY gave Rome power and power corrupts as we see.

Yeshua was not left untouched during his advent, that is G-d allowed him to be crucified in much the same way as G-d did not stop pagan roman practices that crept into christianity etc BECAUSE that is reserved for judgement.

Secondly, humans were given the chance to choose good over evil WITHOUT DIRECT grooming and verbal guidance from any heavenly power.

The lust for power, conquests, dominion overlands etc would blind Roman Christians and their empire offshoots but that was prophesised as well.

Read Revelations and Daniel..... G-d knew humans would fall for the deviations and trappings of the flesh and prophecies were given EVEN BEFORE yeshua as born.

mylene · Mar 18, 2004

Mordechai18 said:
So, we see a very active hand of G-d in Israel's history (again), a very active role in reforming Judaism and pointing it in a new direction (not eradicating it).
However, within a few hundred years, this new direction given us by G-d has trinitarian beliefs, Sunday worship, persecution of Jews, eradication of Torah observance, etc.
It might (and has been, by some) be concluded that after taking such a direct hand in the establishment of Yeshua as Moschiach, G-d let everything pretty much go to heck in a handbasket until the 20th century.
Why would this be? I feel like maybe G-d really dropped the ball on this one. :o

Shalom,

You have actually made a very insightful observation that ties in to G-d's
words about what was to happen.

This is exactly what CONFUSED DANIEL when He saw what was to come.

G-d made it clear that humans would deviate extensively BUT AS ALWAYS

HE ALLOWS certain things to happen for a purpose. However, we were warned long before they started to happen.

Daniel 7: 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

I'll elaborate on this but as you can see, humans erred but G-d allowed that to happen.

ShirChadash · Mar 18, 2004

Good posts, Mylene

Mordechai18 · Mar 18, 2004

Zemirah said:
Good posts, Mylene

I agree - thank you.
I've got to think on this one...

Linda8 · Mar 19, 2004

Mordechai18 said:
So, we see a very active hand of G-d in Israel's history (again), a very active role in reforming Judaism and pointing it in a new direction (not eradicating it).
However, within a few hundred years, this new direction given us by G-d has trinitarian beliefs, Sunday worship, persecution of Jews, eradication of Torah observance, etc.
It might (and has been, by some) be concluded that after taking such a direct hand in the establishment of Yeshua as Moschiach, G-d let everything pretty much go to heck in a handbasket until the 20th century.
Why would this be? I feel like maybe G-d really dropped the ball on this one. :o

I somehow get the feeling that by things going into the "handbasket" as

you put it, when the time of the end comes it would really be an intensely

punishing period since the errors have accumulated for so many years.

The greater the deviation, the greater the accountability.

Mordechai18 · Mar 20, 2004

This must be where you either have faith or you don't.
It doesn't make sense to me that G-d would institute a new covenant (in order to fix things and get us back on track), and then let us completely misunderstand that new and improved covenant for over 2,000 years while millions of Jews die as a result.
Not to argue - just giving my impression...

koilias · Mar 20, 2004

I don't know Morry...I struggle with that one too. I know the pat answers in Christianity, but I've never dwelled confortably with them. It's just good fodder to keep questioning and pondering over.

The mystery of why anti-Semitism came into the church really bothers me. When I think back through Jewish history, though, it's never been easy to see why many things happen, but usually bad things result when a brother decides to hate the other brother. So the problem is not learning to love your neighbor perhaps. Think of the split between the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom and all the problems that brought. Let me just say that so long as the rupture exists we aren't able (either one of us) to see the Kingdom of HaShem fully. But when I talk to you and INOrder and other Jewish friends I start to see its other half active...what's missing in my tradition....Just my two cents.

I think of the Psalm that goes:
Behold! How good and how pleasant the dwelling together of brothers! (Psalm 133).

Does everybody know that that Psalm is about David rejoicing over the sight of faithful brothers from the Northern tribes (Ephraim) coming to Jerusalem to worship HaShem (instead of the high places at Bethel and Dan)?

Its a very beautiful Psalm. The Psalm equates the dwelling together of brothers to the blessing of the fine (northern) oil flowing down upon the beard and robe of Aaron, when he was anointed high priest! In other words, the priesthood was anointed with the dwelling together of brothers in harmony!

The Psalm also compares the dwelling together to the "Dew of Hermon (Ephraim) falling down upon the mountains of Zion (Judah)."

In the dwelling together of brothers HaShem commanded the blessing:
Life unto the World to Come!

mylene · Mar 21, 2004

Mordechai18 said:
This must be where you either have faith or you don't.
It doesn't make sense to me that G-d would institute a new covenant (in order to fix things and get us back on track), and then let us completely misunderstand that new and improved covenant for over 2,000 years while millions of Jews die as a result.
Not to argue - just giving my impression...

Actually, the deaths of Jews started quite early... right after the covenant

was established so one could even ask why so close to the period

after the new covenant, would G-d allow the Romans to kill so many Jews.

It started only a few years after Yeshua left so one wonders why.

The scattering of Jews away from their homeland placed them in the

position of being targeted because if Jews had a firm kingdom established

they would not have been subjected to the massacres etc....

visionary · Mar 2, 2005

So why did God allow 2000 years of prevalent twisting in the winds of strife/controversies to occur?

Sephania · Mar 2, 2005

Neither in this mountain or yet at Jerusalem...........................The time is coming and is here now when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such to worship him.

Why has G-d allowed Moschiach to be abused for 2,000 years?

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