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Why Evolution is Impossible part II

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Mallon

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You are the one who isn't listening; most of all to God's Word.
Again, pastor, it isn't God's word I reject; it's your fallible interpretation of it. Luther once slammed Copernicus for not believing God's word when it said in Joshua that the sun goes about the earth, and I reject that accusation for the same reason that I reject your own. It demonstrates shallow thinking about the Scriptures.

Back to your examples, you're still not telling the whole truth. You mention a few amphibians that look similar to modern taxa, but why don't you mention fossils like Triadobatrachus or Gerobatrachus that are obviously transitional between frogs and salamanders?



When you refer to lizard fossils, why do you make no mention of things like Petrolacosaurus, which is so clearly transitional between modern diapsid lizards and more basal amniotes?



You also mention fossil plants, but you conveniently neglect to mention Runcaria, a species of fossil plant from the Devonian that perfectly shows a transitional morphology between seed plants and more primitive forms:



Indeed, it strikes me that your entire argument against evolution is one from incredulity -- you clearly aren't familiar with those excellent transitional fossils that provide some of the best evidence for evolution in the past. (Either that, or you are blatantly ignoring them.) You might take a lesson from the words of St. Augustine:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

Honestly, as someone in the field of the biological sciences, myself, you come across as someone who has no idea what he is talking about. I get the distinct impression you don't care, though, because you think it's you and God against the world.
 
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shernren

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Okay, let's assume that all these fossils are actually what you claim they are, Cal: evidence that life-forms don't change across Earth's history.

When were all those fossils laid down? According to most YECs (and I'm guessing you'd agree) they were laid down during the Flood, which means the fossilized life-forms were those alive before the Flood.

Now, if life has not changed between before and after the Flood, that must mean that all the species alive today were also alive before the Flood. Your own evidence supports such a view.

But the Bible gave very precise dimensions for Noah's Ark, and he could not possibly have fit all land-dwelling species onto the Ark.

You have just shown that the Biblical story of the Flood could not have happened, according to your own evidence.

... I love the smell of creationist self-contradiction in the morning; it smells like victory.
 
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USincognito

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The Creationist source you got that image from is incorrect. Bat's aren't rodents. They're Chiroptera and more closely related to flying lemurs and primates than to rodents.
Eutheria
esp.
Chiroptera
 
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Willtor

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Is this some kind of a joke? Are you serious? I quoted (1) Websters dictionary. (2) Encyclopedia Britannica, & (3) the Cambridge University dictionary. Now just what do you think the scholars who put those works together use as criteria?

Seriously, talk to a scientist in any field about entries regarding their fields in any and all of these sources. Talk to them about what they think of high school science texts. I'm not joking. We all feel like our fields are woefully misrepresented.

You are NOT the one who determines change in a definition that has been the commonly known, commonly accepted definition for 150 yrs. You are fast losing credibility with me by giving me this nonsense.


The common definition is not necessarily the same as the scientific definition. That's the problem. However people in general use terms -- it isn't necessarily how scientists use them. An analogy: consider the popular usage of "resurrection" -- many people (including Christians) will say that Jesus resurrected Lazarus. But he didn't. He resuscitated him. The resurrection deals with a new creation into which Jesus was the first to enter and the rest of us will enter at the end of time. The popular usage differs from the theological one. There's no way around it. And naturally, I can't be expected to defend the idea that Lazarus was resurrected from a non-Christian who points out that Lazarus died, again. Likewise, how can any of the TEs here defend the popular usage of evolution when we disbelieve it as much as you?


What you are arguing is not what Darwin thought. I can't very well defend what you are arguing because I don't believe it, myself. Darwin wouldn't defend it, either, if he were alive today.

You've done nothing in dealing with the evidence that I have presented to this point that reveals that either 'Darwinian' evolution or YOUR definition of 'evolution' has ever occured.

The 'up-dated' definition of evolution, i.e. (in short) 'a change in allele frequency' is woefully inadequate and dishonest for it misleads the student from understanding the issue and the practical outworking of what evolution is supposed to be doing in our world. It's like defining a souped-up 357 Chevrolet as 'an 8 cylinder engine with four wheels.'

I am not going to continue debating this particular point.[/QUOTE]

Okay.

The TE's don't care what God's Word says about the creation. To them, what skeptics say about origins and development is above the words of Moses and Jesus Christ.

I'm a TE, and I care what God's Word says about creation.


I found a number of examples, but I didn't find a way for me to decide. Anyway, we can stick to talking about evolution. That's okay with me.
 
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Calypsis4

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The Creationist source you got that image from is incorrect. Bat's aren't rodents. They're Chiroptera and more closely related to flying lemurs and primates than to rodents.
Eutheria
esp.
Chiroptera

I didn't say thay were. Please read carefully what I said above. They supposedly 'evolved' from a rodent-like organism. But I made it clear in more than one place that evolutionists don't KNOW exactly what bats evolved from. There is NO fossil evidence to substantiate that the bat 'evolved' from or 'evolved' into any other organism.

My, oh my, you are missing the point.

Best wishes.
 
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Calypsis4

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Okay.



I'm a TE, and I care what God's Word says about creation.

For in six days the Lord God made the heavens and the earth...Exodus 20:11.

But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. Mark 10:6.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

But Adam was first formed then Eve. I Timothy 2:13

You claim to believe in scripture and evolution at the same time even though the scriptures are VERY clear about what God did and evolution is taught nowhere in the Bible. That is called Orwellian double-think.

I found a number of examples, but I didn't find a way for me to decide. Anyway, we can stick to talking about evolution. That's okay with me.[/quote]

Bye
 
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Calypsis4

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You are rejecting God's word. There is no evolution taught in the Bible. Not even a hint.

Your point above: 'triadobatracus' & 'Gerobatrchus' is THE SAME salamander! Who are you trying to fool? There are no 'transitions' because evolution doesn't exist in the first place. Secondly...if you think that they are 'transitional' then demonstrate that they have made a genetic transition by revealing the DNA change of of one to the other.

That you know you can't do.
 
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Mallon

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You are rejecting God's word. There is no evolution taught in the Bible. Not even a hint.
I am rejecting what you say. Despite what you might think, you are not God. Like me, you are simply interpreting the words of God and we come to different conclusions about what they say.
And for the umpteenth time, simply because the Bible doesn't make mention of something does not mean that thing does not exist. The Bible doesn't make mention of the Internet, either, and yet here you are ranting and raving online.

Your point above: 'triadobatracus' & 'Gerobatrchus' is THE SAME salamander!
No, they are not the same, and no, they are not like modern salamanders. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you're making yourself (and the brand of Christianity you speak for) look foolish because of it. In fact, both Gerobatrachus and Triadobatrachus are more similar to frogs, but they retain salamander-like characteristics, including fused ankle bones and an odontoid process on the first vertebra. The number of presacral vertebrae is also transitional between that of modern frogs and salamanders (Gerobatrachus has 17 and the younger Triadobatrachus has 14).
Seriously, you should research this stuff before you speak so forcefully about it.

Who are you trying to fool? There are no 'transitions' because evolution doesn't exist in the first place.
And yet the fossils I've presented suggest otherwise, as do all lines of evidence from biostratigraphy, biogeography, developmental biology, genetics, comparative anatomy, etc. You are simply ignoring the evidence because you have convinced yourself of a particularly narrow interpretation of God's word and have shut yourself off completely to the evidence of His handiwork in nature (Psa 19, Rom 1:20). You're behaving just like Luther, who condemned Copernicus for thinking the earth goes about the sun, unthinkingly citing proof texts as evidence.

Secondly...if you think that they are 'transitional' then demonstrate that they have made a genetic transition by revealing the DNA change of of one to the other.
That you know you can't do.
You're right, I can't because the DNA is not preserved. Nor do I need to. In order to support a scientific theory, all that needs to be done is to show that the theory makes certain predictions and that these predictions be borne out by the evidence. In this case, evolution predicts certain transitional forms and we see these transitional forms in the fossil record (Tiktaalik is an excellent recent example of this). The predictions that follow from neocreationism about the fossil record are not borne out, on the other hand, and so it is rejected by the evidence of God's handiwork.
(If you're insistent on observing DNA-level transitions, though, I suggest you look at the ape family tree. There is excellent DNA evidence that man is closely related to chimps, gorillas, and pongos, successively.)
 
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Mallon

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Calypsis4, I should also point out the inconsistency in your position so far. You started this thread out by making the claim that no transitional fossils exist, posting many examples of fossils that look superficially like living species. Yet when myself and others here posted many examples of fossils that are clearly transitional in their morphology, you then moved the goalposts; rather than admitting to the transitional nature of these fossils, you demanded that they be shown to be related by DNA evidence. That's not very honest. You demanded transitional fossils and you got them. And we can provide more, if you so wish (assuming the mods don't give you the boot first for behaving in an unChristian-like manner). But at least be upfront and acknowledge that there do exist fossils that are transitional in their morphology. Even neocreationist organizations like AiG admit this.
 
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Calypsis4

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"O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Acts 13:10

Not a very 'Christain' thing for Paul to do to that poor heretic, right?
 
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Mallon

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You are NOT telling the truth. Those 'examples' are not transitionals.

Of course they are, and I referred to the specific characters that make them transitional. You are simply avoiding the subject by accusing me of "fabricating facts" rather than actually dealing with the implications of said transitional morphologies. Now ask me if would expect anything less from a fundie preacher from the southern US.

I challenged you above to produce evidence that there has been a genetic change in the DNA in such transformations of one kind of organism to another. You did NOT do that. You can't. Furthermore, you have yet to admit that you can't.
Fossils don't normally preserve DNA, pastor, so of course I can't use DNA to show that Gerobatrachus is transitional between frogs and salamanders. As I've shown, we use morphology for that.
We can use genetic evidence to show that certain living species are related, though. Here's an example from Ken Miller concerning the relationship between humans and chimps:

YouTube - Ken Miller on Human Evolution

And here's the transitional fossil series that supports such an interpretation:


There are no transitionals.

Of course there are, you just need to open your eyes and take your fingers out of your ears.

No, you quote-mined them in typical neocreationist fashion. If you were familiar with any of their works, you would know that they do indeed accept transitional fossils but feel that they are rare given the discrepancy between the slow rate of sedimentary deposition and the fast rate at which adaptive radiation occurs. Please don't tell me I'm being dishonest when you clearly haven't read the works of the authors you are quote-mining.

I intend to help them until I am kicked off the forum.
Honestly, I suspect you are doing more harm for your case than good. You're coming across as a raving mad-man.

"Un-Christian" by your definition.
By the definition of the mods, evidently. If you were behaving in a Christ-like manner, you wouldn't be getting a slap on the wrist.
 
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Willtor

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Okay.

I'm a TE, and I care what God's Word says about creation.

For in six days the Lord God made the heavens and the earth...Exodus 20:11.

The days aren't intended literally. This was known long before evolution came around.

But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. Mark 10:6.

Here's another good example. After all, the creation account says they were made on the sixth day, and if one took Mark too literally, here, one might think he was teaching that man was created on the first day. One has to interpret this as indicating not the beginning of creation of all things, but of the beginning of the creation of humanity. Jesus, here, is teaching about divorce and using the truth of the nature of humanity (as created by God) as a basis for marriage that is greater than what Moses permitted.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

Again, if you take this literally, it would seem that Eve bore no responsibility. This is a pretty strong indication that Paul understood the value of Genesis from the figurative interpretation.

But Adam was first formed then Eve. I Timothy 2:13

This is (by far) the most blatant figurative usage of the passage. Paul's reasoning is bogus unless man being created before woman is taken figuratively. If Eve doesn't represent all women in this chapter, then citing this passage is a non sequitur to his train of thought.

All this is not to say that it could not _also_ be literal -- but the value that is being drawn from it is figurative in nature. No literal interpretation is vindicated -- even the 20th century literal interpretation -- by these passages. In fact, I think a much stronger case could be made for arguing that the earth is flat from the Bible than that the earth is ~6000 years old.

You claim to believe in scripture and evolution at the same time even though the scriptures are VERY clear about what God did and evolution is taught nowhere in the Bible. That is called Orwellian double-think.

Orwellian double-think is where one holds a contradiction in ones mind. Evolution does not contradict Scripture. It _does_ contradict certain interpretations of Genesis. But I don't hold any of those interpretations.
 
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Calypsis4

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This will be my final reply to you. The Lord rebuke you.
 
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Mallon

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No, they are not. Similarity of structure indicates a common Creator not a common ancestor.
No it doesn't. There is no rule that says a single creator must design according to the same principles, particularly an omnipotent one. Think about the implications of what you are saying: do the similarities shared by a cat and dog to the exclusion of a frog mean that the latter two share a creator apart from that of the frog? Does the fact that I look more like my dad than my uncle mean that my dad and I share a creator exclusive to my uncle? The "common creator" argument makes no sense. Different creators can make similar things and a single creator can make very different things.

You do know that ID advocate Michael Behe was the one who first used the mousetrap to illustrate irreducible complexity, right? What did you find laughable about Miller's refutation of it? And why have you avoided addressing Miller's argument that I linked you to? You appear more interested in attacking his character than his science.

A dog compared to a thylacine. Should I conclude that they are related because of similarity? Problem. One is canine and the other is a marsupial.
That's right, and evolution explains their superficial similarity on the basis of convergent evolution. Both forms face similar selection pressures on different continents, and so they have both evolved to fill similar niches. A careful look at their skeletal structure and reproductive physiology reveals that they are not closely related, however, the thylacine being more closely related to kangaroos than to placental mammals. Really, nothing you've said here is a problem for evolutionary theory at all.

Apes have 48 chromosomes and humans 46. Explain to the readers how that bridge was crossed genetically and then demonstrate how it was done by appeal to experiments in the lab.
Chromosome fusion. If you had watched the Ken Miller video I posted earlier, you would have known this. He explains it in great detail. Chromosome fusion happens all the time. We've documented it in fruit flies, grasshoppers, moths, etc. Chromosome fusion also accounts for the difference in chromosome counts between frogs and salamanders you alluded to earlier. If differences in chromosome numbers really were evidence of miraculous creation, you would have to believe that babies with Downs syndrome were magically poofed into existence also.

Actually, you did quote mine because you simply cited the same letter that neocreationists do all the time without understanding the context in which it was given. Here's the background to Patterson's letter you neglected to mention:

Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two 'Cites'

This will be my final reply to you. The Lord rebuke you.
Funny how you insist on the teachings of Jesus as they apply to Genesis, yet ignore everything he has to say about the fruits of the spirit. Jesus rebuked hypocrites, Calypsis4. Hopefully someone will report your last post as I have already replied to it!
 
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Calypsis4

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My last post on this thread concerns the impossibility of biological evolution as it relates to genetics. Comparative anatomy is not the bottom line in establishing what was supposed to be a change from one living organism to other organisms. Change within the kind is the expected and observed phenomenon, but the evolution of change from one organism to a different organism never occurs.

This matter was established by the Creator in Genesis chapter one. His word makes it clear that all organisms will reproduce only ‘after its kind’. Such as



But while we might see genetic change in such things as…

Ligers:


A liger is a cross between a lion and a tiger. But they are all hybrids. The genetic limitations that God imposed on nature are clearly seen here.

We will never see crossbreeding result in something like this…



or this…



…or any variation of the same. Evolutionists laugh at such a claim but they don’t have ANY examples from nature to demonstrate that any kind of biological change has occurred; certainly nothing from genetics.

They claim that mutations are one of the main mechanisms that bring about this change but virtually all known mutations have been harmful. But even if the supposed ‘beneficial’ mutations have occurred in nature how could such a rare thing ever bring about the evolution of such a vast array of life forms on earth? The insect world alone boggles the imagination.

But the mutations observed results in things like…



Biologists have experimented by taking drosophila flies through tens of thousands of generations and yet ended up with...(guess what?) drosophilas!

Mutations produce things like…



These facts are well known but theistic evolutionists have bought into the lie of evolution despite the scientific facts. They actually believe that Darwinists are telling the truth about the changes in nature. They trust them instead of God and what He said (ten times in Genesis alone!) 'after its kind'. Simple faith and trust in God’s Word is tossed out in favor of the opinions of those who hate the gospel.

A day of reckoning is coming for all who disbelieved the Lord.
 
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Calypsis4

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Okay.

I'm a TE, and I care what God's Word says about creation.

I found a number of examples, but I didn't find a way for me to decide. Anyway, we can stick to talking about evolution. That's okay with me.[/quote]

Have a nice day.
 
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Mallon

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Refuted here:
CH350: Discrete Kinds

We will never see crossbreeding result in something like this…
That's a strawman. Evolution does not state that new species arise via the hybridization of discreet living species. Evolution occurs via reproductive isolation of sub-populations.

Evolutionists laugh at such a claim but they don’t have ANY examples from nature to demonstrate that any kind of biological change has occurred; certainly nothing from genetics.
I provided genetic evidence for evolution in the Ken Miller video you ignored.

They claim that mutations are one of the main mechanisms that bring about this change but virtually all known mutations have been harmful.
Refuted here:

CB101: Most mutations harmful?

But even if the supposed ‘beneficial’ mutations have occurred in nature how could such a rare thing ever bring about the evolution of such a vast array of life forms on earth? The insect world alone boggles the imagination.
Addressed here:

CB928: Beneficial traits not ubiquitous.
CB940.1: The Mathematical Probability of Evolution

God also said in Job that the earth is shaped like a piece of clay under a seal (i.e., flat). Don't get your science from the Bible. It was not written for that purpose.

Simple faith and trust in God’s Word is tossed out in favor of the opinions of those who hate the gospel.
No doubt you'll be reported for that, too.
 
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