ok, thanks.@Dan Brooks go down to Discussion and Debate.
No I really do want answers to this question. I explained further down that since I grew up in church, I always had belief in God and Jesus, and that the Bible was true. I didn't have an experience of living 20 or 30 years as an outright unbeliever before I believed on Jesus, so I really wanted to know what people who don't believe think when they hear the gospel. Some believe it when they hear, and others don't. And since I do, I really wanted to know why those who don't, don't.
The person I responded to (where you said I was preaching) expressed a belief or acceptance of the gospel, but had worries about it being too good to be true. So I was just trying to address that particular issue.
That's all I was trying to do there. Sorry for annoying you. I didn't mean to.
BTW, I like your name. It's clever.
I used to love watching Bob Ross on his painting show. Unbelievable what he could do in a half an hour. They looked like photos. Even better than photos really.ok, thanks.
Which is why I was asking about it. But the thing is, I wanted to know WHY people don't believe it. I already understand that lots of people don't believe it. I just wanted to have more insight as to why, that's all.You've been quoting the Bible most of the way through this thread. At the risk of repeating myself - if I (or other atheists) don't accept that God exists why would we be interested in the words from a book written 1000-1500 years ago?
If we don't accept God then we don't accept that the Bible can be God's word or, for that matter, that Jesus is the son of a (non existent) God.
It is very obvious that you do not understand the basic nature of unbelief.
OB
I used to love watching Bob Ross on his painting show. Unbelievable what he could do in a half an hour. They looked like photos. Even better than photos really.
Oh that would have been cool. I would have watched that for sure.Yeah. My grandmother and I used to watch him. I got my painting inspiration from him. The avatar is part of a banner i made for both my grandmothers. They are in spirit now but alive with us family.
Bob' son did some paintings too. I wish he could have kept up with his father's show.
Well, then being a theist, believing that God is there, why not pray and ask Him if the gospel really is true. Ask Him if the Bible really is His word. Ask Him if Jesus really is the Savior, and that you really can have eternal life.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Yes that's from the Bible, but it isn't just true because it's in the Bible. I know by experience.
You've been quoting the Bible most of the way through this thread. At the risk of repeating myself - if I (or other atheists) don't accept that God exists why would we be interested in the words from a book written 1000-1500 years ago?
Which is why I was asking about it. But the thing is, I wanted to know WHY people don't believe it. I already understand that lots of people don't believe it. I just wanted to have more insight as to why, that's all.
I'm definitely not trying to offend anyone here.
In what universe was the Bible written between the years 500 and 1000 CE? Scholars put the Torah at the 6th century BCE and the Gospel of John at about 100 CE, so you are wildly off with those numbers.
Well, then being a theist, believing that God is there, why not pray and ask Him if the gospel really is true. Ask Him if the Bible really is His word. Ask Him if Jesus really is the Savior, and that you really can have eternal life.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Yes that's from the Bible, but it isn't just true because it's in the Bible. I know by experience.
Thank you for your gentle correction.
I, of course, meant 2000 to 2500 yrs BP which, with a little rounding, is in the ball park.
OB
Sure, if we're thinking geologically...
No, not really. I don't say there is no god, just that I cannot accept the claims made to me by others. I've never experienced anything I can attribute to any kind of god.Do you believe in any god at all?
Yes I know that faith does not come from ourselves. It is the gift of God. God has to grant us the faith to believe in Him, and on Christ as our Savior. In fact, no one is even able to come to Christ unless the father first draws him.A similar method is in use by the LDS church, they speak of praying God to reveal to the individual that the contents of the Book of Mormon is true, and that one can know it is true by a "burning of the bosom".
I'm not offering this as a poisoning of the well, but rather to point out that this level of subjectivity of God individually "telling" someone the truth of something is hardly a guarantor of the truth of a thing; because feelings are hardly trustworthy indicators of the objective truth of a religious claim. People have convictions about many things, people of all religions have personal experiences which convince them of the truthfulness of their own position. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on spiritual experiences, or people thinking they've felt or experienced or heard the Divine communicate with them. And as a Christian, and perhaps especially as a Lutheran Christian, I consider this suggestion to be fundamentally bad.
And where does faith come from? It says right there that one cannot seek God without faith and that one needs faith to seek Him. Thus faith has to come from some place to begin with. In the Lutheran tradition we say faith comes extra nos, meaning faith comes from outside of ourselves, it is as St. Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 "not of yourselves, but the gift of God"; and that is specifically through the external means that God gives us faith, as we read in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ". We call these external means "Means of Grace", consisting of Word and Sacrament. When the Gospel is preached, it creates faith. This is why we confess in our Lutheran Confessions this:
"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves." - The Large Catechism, 2.III, 38-39
Asking why a person doesn't believe the Gospel boils down to the fact that they don't believe the Gospel. Approaching the subject as a Lutheran there's also the fact that one cannot believe the Gospel without faith, and so it is impossible for a person to believe in something for which they do not have faith; and since saving faith comes not from the will of man but from God as a supernatural gift, no amount of trying to argue a person into faith can or will ever work. There is no magic argument, there is no right amount of rhetoric, no proof, or test, or thing you or I can do to make someone else a believer in Jesus Christ. I cannot make another person a Christian, I cannot bring a person to Christ; it is the Holy Spirit who converts and makes people Christians.
Preaching at someone is also the wrong way to go, because preaching at a person is little more than shouting. The preaching of the Gospel is not preaching at people, it's about confessing our faith that God has, indeed, raised up Christ from the dead and that through Him there is forgiveness of sins, resurrection from the dead, and eternal life. It is called "gospel" for a reason, it is euaggelion, good news, good report, the good message of what God has done--for you, for me, for the whole world. In antiquity the euaggelion was the report, the message, that went forth of the victories of Caesar and Rome against their enemies; the Christian euaggelion proclaims a different kind of victory, of a different kind of kingdom, of a different kind of Lord and King.
-CryptoLutheran
OkNo, not really. I don't say there is no god, just that I cannot accept the claims made to me by others. I've never experienced anything I can attribute to any kind of god.
OkNo offense taken Dan.
Quick tip - if you're going to try to convert atheists don't quote the Bible - it's a circular argument.
Most atheist don't accept that your God (or any other god) exists because there is no evidence that God exists. Most informed Christians will also concede that God's existence cannot be proven.
To 'believe' something I need some reason to believe. In my case that has to be more than your conviction.
You (probably) don't believe in fairies or Thor or astrology or Ahura Mazda or Khali or trolls under bridges. If asked "Why?" you would rightly say that there's no convincing evidence that any of these things exist.
My (lack of) belief in your God is exactly the same in principle and I suspect most atheists would share this view.
It's that simple.
OB
This question is for those who know they are not Christians, who have not believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, for redemption of your soul.
When someone shares the gospel with you, to repent of your sins, and believe on the Lord Jesus, and trust Him to forgive your sins and save you from hell, what makes you say no?
I know the spiritual reasons, but I would like to know what goes through your mind that makes you reject the message. Thank you for any responses.
Thank you for such an honest and thought out answer to my question. This is what I wanted to know. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank youI figure I'll answer your question since the thread is genuine. Please don't take offense.
The bible never appealed to me as a spiritual book. I read the whole bible and have favorite chapters and verses just as one would have in their novel or poetry book. Some chapters are more tedious to read and others well-written such as Hebrews, Ecclesiastes, and most of the gospels. The first part of Genesis was fine and so forth.
One reason I disagree (rather than reject) with christian view of salvation is that in my opinion, I have no reason to be saved. I don't know why others feel a need to be saved especially from an outside source. I've asked this question many of times but christians always point back to the bible as if it is magic and the answer will pop out of midair.
When someone asks me the salvation-question it does not make sense. It's like asking me why don't I want to be saved from drowning when there is no water near me for miles.
I would not call it rejection. Rejection is more like you hate the gospels or turn away because you have ill feelings about it as if it harmed you in some way. I was never raised christian and was christian only four years of my adult life. So, my spiritual outlook only matured in those four years. If I had not been christian, I would never believed in god and would never understood the bible other than a book I once studied.
It's more christians (Muslims and Jews) have different mindsets than those of Eastern faiths. Eastern practitioners don't see a need to bring people to our faith. There is no proselytizing in our "scriptures" and most people's culture (mine is all christian-evangelical focused) are against forcing people to follow their faith whether well-intended or not. They are humble religions and those who know about it usually ask because they are interested not listen because they are told they need to believe something that in their heart is not true.
If I came to a Christian and say "why do you reject The Buddha's teachings," that would be against my morals and would never do that; not because it's against CF rules but because it's just not in my view to do. I've helped people come to Christ despite my own beliefs. I've mirrored Christians based on my experiences without telling them I was Catholic (that tends to break heads; something Eastern faiths don't really have)
The Body of Christ is about the People. When more than one person comes together in Christ name, he is present. So, if only one person is present, where is Christ?
Another reason I don't practice is that the body of Christ represents the faith of The Church. When the Body does things (outside of political) that harm other people, it is no longer a Christ-centered. It's not a good example for people who are not search for Christ would learn from unless there is no isolation between christians go on stage left and non-christians go on stage right and if one crosses the barriers, one get's punished or warned.
Things like that I don't care for. It makes me become one of "those people" separating myself from people unlike me. It goes against equality which in many ways religious and non-religious oriented, I can't stand being a part of. I can't represent a faith that, by authority and default, separates the "good guys" from the "bad guys."
To Christians that helps them put in perspective in who will help them in Christ and who will pull them away. Some Christians really can't talk with non-christians because they don't want to be equally yoked.
The reason I don't practice too is I don't want to represent that type of thinking. From all the christian denominations I been to, Catholicism (any liturgical faith Orthodox included) have more of an extensive relationship with Christ because it is both physical and spiritual embedded. Their history of taking life in the name of their faiths is also something I don't stand for. It would be hypocritical to say "I am saved" and then the manner in which I am saved is through someone who died for me rather than saved me by his life instead.
If there were no Crucifixion, that would make more sense. The message of salvation is to die in order to live as said in Galations 2:20 when one is crucified in christ they live in christ. On the other hand, who and what I follow is quite the opposite. We value life, we don't need sacrifice, the training is of the mind that controlls the heart, and there is no "man vs. christian" but all people are involved in spiritual development.
That is why I don't believe. I'm not one to belittle Christians and the Christian faith. People can take this response as their will even though it's not intended to offend. That is another thing that I dislike about Christianity. I have never heard anyone say "who is the real christians and argued about it." I met beautiful JW and I used to be Catholic and neither the two are considered brothers and sisters in Christ. It's as if the trinity somehow devoid ones relation according to man rather than god.
I am all for equality; and, can't be apart of a religion, any religion, that sets up equality based on how man interprets another person's relationship with christ. Only god knows.
There is a break up in the body of Christ and people just don't see it. It's sad but I go to a Buddhist site that we support each other in our faith and everyone is welcome to join and be respectful when not a Buddhist or interested in Buddhism.
Abrahamic religions have a totally different mindset and it hurts my heart and soul; and, I can't live like that, so that is why I left.
It's more christians (Muslims and Jews) have different mindsets than those of Eastern faiths. Eastern practitioners don't see a need to bring people to our faith. There is no proselytizing in our "scriptures" and most people's culture (mine is all christian-evangelical focused) are against forcing people to follow their faith whether well-intended or not. They are humble religions and those who know about it usually ask because they are interested not listen because they are told they need to believe something that in their heart is not true.
Buddhism has always been a missionary religion. I came across this passage cited as Vinaya Pitaka 1-12:
"Go forth, disciples, and wander to the salvation and joy of much people out of compassion for the world, to the blessing, salvation and joy of gods, and men. Go not two together on the same way. Preach the doctrine which is salutary in its beginning, in its course and in its consummation, in the spirit and in the letter; proclaim the pure way of holiness."
Any religion that isn't interested in attracting and keeping followers isn't going to survive its founder, much less last another 2000 years afterwards. This goes for Eastern religions as well.
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