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Why do you reject the pope?

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Picklenickels

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Xpy:

Another thing. You had better be REALLY careful about who you accuse of "sin".
If I am correct stating the Church's position, then YOU could be the one in that category.
I am going to make a point of bringing this up with my Priest, just to get his opinion.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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1870 was the year Rome declared Papal Infallibility. Imagine that, it took the popes 1800+ years to figure out they were infallible!

often things are made dogma long after they're first believed only when they're challenged.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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what do you guys think of this..

Council of Ephesus
"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

Peter Chrysologus
"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome" (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).

Optatus
"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. ... ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).


Irenaeus
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

I think it sounds like Rome had primacy not because of any political reason but because the Bishop of Rome was there who is the successor of Peter, the source of unity?

 
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E.C.

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I think it sounds like Rome had primacy not because of any political reason but because the Bishop of Rome was there who is the successor of Peter, the source of unity?

I hate to tell you, but you will get no converts to Catholicism from the Orthodox present.

We've lived without Rome for a thousand years and the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against us. With God's Grace and Love and our feeble prayers, we shall survive for another thousand at least!
 
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Musa80

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Is that all we can say to it? I would personally like to see how these quotes mesh with the current common take on Rome here in TAW.

XPy

I'm all ears, errr eyes I suppose, as well. The arrogant "we don't need Rome" therefore we're justified on that alone, gets a bit old.
 
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E.C.

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Is that all we can say to it? I would personally like to see how these quotes mesh with the current common take on Rome here in TAW.

XPy

I'm all ears, errr eyes I suppose, as well. The arrogant "we don't need Rome" therefore we're justified on that alone, gets a bit old.
Forgive me.
 
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Musa80

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Forgive me.

I think I should say the same. The tone of my post was far harsher than I intended. So please, forgive me. Truthfully, I would like to see sound arguments from those further along in their faith than I, as some of those quotes are hard for me to reconcile.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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so much for reunification... anyway, we can say the same..

and I wasn't trying to convert anyone
 
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Mikeb85

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First, it would be useful to post the whole thing. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xv.html

Second, the Pope wasn't present at this council. Basically this is a declaration that the Papal legates represent the position of the church of Rome (which agrees with the council in condemning Nestorius). This really doesn't prove anything concerning Papal authority...

What I find more interesting, is the 28th CANON from the council of Chalcedon.


Here is a canon produced by the 4th Ecumenical Council, stating that Rome was given priveleges because it was the imperial city, and that Constantinople is to be given EQUAL priveleges because it is the New Rome.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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It shows that Peter "even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors." It shows that the office of Peter passed to his successors and didn't die with him.. and what is the office of Peter.. he's the "prince and head of the Apostles" and the "rock" on which the Church is built.. then other ECF's say that he preserves unity in the Church and that Christ "founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity".


It says that Constantinople is to be given equal priveleges but not equal "ecclesiastical" priveleges, - in those, it is second.
"And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her."
Old Rome is still first, Constantinople, the New Rome, second after it, with equal priveleges but not the same "ecclesiastically". The priveleges are more practical/political, not necessarily spiritual. They're not talking about the Papacy here either.. it does not say that the Bishop of Constantinople is equal to the Bishop of Rome..
 
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Mikeb85

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No, it only shows that the Roman Pope is a successor to St. Peter. As is the Patriarch of Antioch. Indeed, even St. Peter himself never had any power over the other apostles. In Acts 15, it's also not St. Peter who had the final say, but rather St. James.




Actually, the canon clearly says "should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs". Equal, though numbered after her (I won't argue that Constantinople didn't come second).

And you're right - they're not talking about the 'Papacy', because the 'Papacy' as today's Roman church understands it, did not exist back then.
 
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Michael G

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so much for reunification... anyway, we can say the same..

and I wasn't trying to convert anyone

You Catholics are the ones who so frequently talk about ending the schism with such hope. You hear very little of anything of that source coming from the holy Orthodox Church.
 
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Picklenickels

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Here is an excerpt from
Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs, 1848

A Reply to the Epistle of Pope Pius IX, "to the Easterns"


This should give some Orthodox rebuttals to your positions regarding the papacy:
For all this we have esteemed it our paternal and brotherly need, and a sacred duty, by our present admonition to confirm you in the Orthodoxy you hold from your forefathers, and at the same time point out the emptiness of the syllogisms of the Bishop of Rome, of which he is manifestly himself aware. For not from his Apostolic Confession does he glorify his Throne, but from his Apostolic Throne seeks to establish his dignity, and from his dignity, his Confession. The truth is the other way. The Throne of Rome is esteemed that of St. Peter by a single tradition, but not from Holy Scripture, where the claim is in favor of Antioch, whose Church is therefore witnessed by the great Basil (Ep. 48 Athan.) to be "the most venerable of all the Churches in the world." Still more, the second Ecumenical Council, writing to a Council of the West (to the most honorable and religious brethren and fellow-servants, Damasus, Ambrose, Britto, Valerian, and others), witnesseth, saying: "The oldest and truly Apostolic Church of Antioch, in Syria, where first the honored name of Christians was used." We say then that the Apostolic Church of Antioch had no right of exemption from being judged according to divine Scripture and synodical declarations, though truly venerated for the throne of St. Peter. But what do we say? The blessed Peter, even in his own person, was judged before all for the truth of the Gospel, and, as Scripture declares, was found blamable and not walking uprightly. What opinion is to be formed of those who glory and pride themselves solely in the possession of his Throne, so great in their eyes? Nay, the sublime Basil the great, the Ecumenical teacher of Orthodoxy in the Catholic Church, to whom the Bishops of Rome are obliged to refer us (p. 8, 1.31), has clearly and explicitly above ( 7) shown us what estimation we ought to have of the judgments of the inaccessible Vatican:—"They neither," he says, "know the truth, nor endure to learn it, striving against those who tell them the truth, and strengthening themselves in their heresy." So that these our holy Fathers whom his Holiness the Pope, worthily admiring as lights and teachers even of the West, accounts as belonging to us, and advises us (p. 8) to follow, teach us not to judge Orthodoxy from the holy Throne, but the Throne itself and him that is on the Throne by the sacred Scriptures, by Synodical decrees and limitations, and by the Faith which has been preached, even the Orthodoxy of continuous teaching. Thus did our Fathers judge and condemn Honorius, Pope of Rome, and Dioscorus, Pope of Alexandria, and Macedonius and Nestorius, Patriarchs of Constantinople, and Peter Gnapheus, Patriarch of Antioch, with others. For if the abomination of desolation stood in the Holy Place, why not innovation and heresy upon a holy Throne? Hence is exhibited in a brief compass the weakness and feebleness of the efforts in behalf of the despotism of the Pope of Rome. For, unless the Church of Christ was founded upon the immovable rock of St. Peter’s Confession, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God (which was the answer of the Apostles in common, when the question was put to them, Whom say ye that I am? (Matt. xvi. 15,) as the Fathers, both Eastern and Western, interpret the passage to us), the Church was built upon a slippery foundation, even on Cephas himself, not to say on the Pope, who, after monopolizing the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, has made such an administration of them as is plain from history. But our divine Fathers, with one accord, teach that the sense of the thrice-repeated command, Feed my sheep, implied no prerogative in St. Peter over the other Apostles, least of all in his successors. It was a simple restoration to his Apostleship, from which he had fallen by his thrice-repeated denial. St. Peter himself appears to have understood the intention of the thrice-repeated question of our Lord: Lovest thou Me, and more, and than these?. (John xxi. 16 for, calling to mind the words, Thou all shall be offended because of Thee, yet will 1 never be offended (Matt. xxvi. 33), he was grieved because He said unto him the third time, Lovest thou Me? But his successors, from self-interest, understand the expression as indicative of St. Peter's more ready mind.
12. His Holiness the Pope says (p. viii. 1.12.) that our LORD said to Peter (Luke xxii. 32), I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Our LORD so prayed because Satan had sought to overthrow the faith of all the disciples, but the LORD allowed him Peter only, chiefly because he had uttered words of boasting, and justified himself above the rest (Matt. xxvi. 33): Though all shall be offended, because of thee, yet will I never be offended. The permission to Satan was but temporary. He began to curse and to swear: I know not the man. Soweak is human nature, left to itself. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. It was but temporary, that, coming again to himself by his return in tears of repentance, he might the rather strengthen his brethren who had neither perjured themselves nor denied. Oh! the wise judgment of the LORD! How divine and mysterious was the last night of our Savior upon earth! That sacred Supper is believed to be consecrated to this day in every Church: This do in remembrance of me (Luke xxii. 19), and As often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, ye do show the LORD's death till he come (1 Cor. xi. 26). Of the brotherly love thus earnest1y commended to us by the common Master, saying, By this shall all men know that ye are my disciple, if ye have love one to another (John xiii. 35), have the Popes first broken the stamp and seal, supporting and receiving heretical novelties, contrary to the things delivered to us and canonically confirmed by our Teachers and Fathers in common. This love acts at this day with power in the souls of Christian people, and particularly in their leaders. We boldly avow before God and men, that the prayer of our Savior (p. ix. l.43) to God and His Father for the common love and unity of Christians in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, in which we believe, that they may be one, ever as we are one (John xvii. 22), worketh in us no less than in his Holiness. Our brotherly love and zeal meet that of his Holiness, with only this difference, that in us it worketh for the covenanted preservation of the pure, undefiled, divine, spotless, and perfect Creed of the Christian Faith, in conformity to the voice of the Gospel and the decrees of the seven holy Ecumenical Synods and the teachings of the ever-existing Catholic Church: but worketh in his Holiness to prop and strengthen the authority and dignity of them that sit on the Apostolic Throne, and their new doctrine. Behold then, the head and front, so to speak, of all the differences and disagreements that have happened between us and them, and the middle wall of partition, which we hope will be taken away in the time of is Holiness, and by the aid of his renowned wisdom, according to the promise of God (St. John x. 16): "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also 1 must bring and they shall hear my voice (Who proceedeth from the Father "). Let it be said then, in the third place, that if it be supposed, according to the words of his Holiness, that this prayer of our LORD for Peter when about to deny and perjure himself, remained attached and united to the Throne of Peter, and is transmitted with power to those who from time to time sit upon it, although, as has before been said, nothing contributes to confirm the opinion (as we are strikingly assured from the example of the blessed Peter himself, even after the descent of the Holy Ghost, yet are we convinced from the words of our LORD, that the time will come when that divine prayer concerning the denial of Peter, "that his faith might not fail for ever" will operate also in some one of the successors of his Throne, who will also weep, as he did, bitterly, and being sometime converted will strengthen us, his brethren, still more in the Orthodox Confession, which we hold from our forefathers;—and would that his Holiness might be this true successor of the blessed Peter! To this our humble prayer, what hinders that we should add our sincere and hearty Counsel in the name of the Holy Catholic Church? We dare not say, as does his Holiness (p. x. 1.22), that it should be done "without any delay;" but without haste, utter mature consideration, and also, if need be, after consultation with the more wise, religious, truth-loving, and prudent of the Bishops, Theologians, and Doctors, to be found at the present day, by God's good Providence, in every nation of the West.

There is more, but I can't post a link as of yet.
 
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exquirer

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From the Holy Gospel of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ according to St. John the Theologian:

"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

You speak boldly of accepting the Sultan's Turban, and live in lands under the prophet's sword - and thanks to the division of the Church, the prophet's sword is winning over billions of souls. We cannot watch with Him one hour....... 'a thousand years in thy sight is as a watch in the night' - so true!!!!!!

Sad. A Christian should seek to do the will of the Father, the Son and the All Good Holy and Life-Giving Spirit.
 
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Reader Antonius

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We've lived without Rome for a thousand years and the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against us.

There are those who would dispute that, especially since you haven't defined what it means to have the Gates of Hell prevail.
 
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Musa80

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You Catholics are the ones who so frequently talk about ending the schism with such hope. You hear very little of anything of that source coming from the holy Orthodox Church.

No offence but do you not see that as a pretty darn big problem? I have to say that the concept I have of Christ's Church is not one that perpetuates the bad blood of long past generations and eternal schism.
 
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