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1870 was the year Rome declared Papal Infallibility. Imagine that, it took the popes 1800+ years to figure out they were infallible!
I hate to tell you, but you will get no converts to Catholicism from the Orthodox present.I think it sounds like Rome had primacy not because of any political reason but because the Bishop of Rome was there who is the successor of Peter, the source of unity?
Is that all we can say to it? I would personally like to see how these quotes mesh with the current common take on Rome here in TAW.
XPy
Is that all we can say to it? I would personally like to see how these quotes mesh with the current common take on Rome here in TAW.
XPy
Forgive me.I'm all ears, errr eyes I suppose, as well. The arrogant "we don't need Rome" therefore we're justified on that alone, gets a bit old.
Forgive me.
I hate to tell you, but you will get no converts to Catholicism from the Orthodox present.
We've lived without Rome for a thousand years and the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against us. With God's Grace and Love and our feeble prayers, we shall survive for another thousand at least!
what do you guys think of this..
Council of Ephesus
"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).
Council of Chalcedon said:Everywhere following the decrees of the Holy Fathers, and aware of the recently recognized Canon of the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops who convened during the reign of Theodosius the Great of pious memory, who became emperor in the imperial city of Constantinople otherwise known as New Rome; we too decree and vote the same things in regard to the privileges and priorities of the most holy Church of that same Constantinople and New Rome. And this is in keeping with the fact that the Fathers naturally enough granted the priorities to the throne of Old Rome on account of her being the imperial capital. And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her. And it is arranged so that only the Metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople aforesaid, and likewise the Bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands; that is to say, that each Metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the Bishops of the province, shall ordain the Bishops of the province, just as is prescribed by the divine Canons. But the Metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses, as has been said, are to be ordained by the Archbishop of Constantinople, after the elections have first been conducted in accordance with custom, and have been reported to him.
First, it would be useful to post the whole thing. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xv.html
Second, the Pope wasn't present at this council. Basically this is a declaration that the Papal legates represent the position of the church of Rome (which agrees with the council in condemning Nestorius). This really doesn't prove anything concerning Papal authority...
What I find more interesting, is the 28th CANON from the council of Chalcedon.
Here is a canon produced by the 4th Ecumenical Council, stating that Rome was given priveleges because it was the imperial city, and that Constantinople is to be given EQUAL priveleges because it is the New Rome.
It shows that Peter "even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors." It shows that the office of Peter passed to his successors and didn't die with him.. and what is the office of Peter.. he's the "prince and head of the Apostles" and the "rock" on which the Church is built.. then other ECF's say that he preserves unity in the Church and that Christ "founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity".
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men [and] brethren, listen to me:
Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.'
"Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, [from] sexual immorality, [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
It says that Constantinople is to be given equal priveleges but not equal "ecclesiastical" priveleges, - in those, it is second.
"And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her."
Old Rome is still first, Constantinople, the New Rome, second after it, with equal priveleges but not the same "ecclesiastically". The priveleges are more practical/political, not necessarily spiritual. They're not talking about the Papacy here either.. it does not say that the Bishop of Constantinople is equal to the Bishop of Rome..
so much for reunification... anyway, we can say the same..
and I wasn't trying to convert anyone
Sad. A Christian should seek to do the will of the Father, the Son and the All Good Holy and Life-Giving Spirit.
We've lived without Rome for a thousand years and the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against us.
You Catholics are the ones who so frequently talk about ending the schism with such hope. You hear very little of anything of that source coming from the holy Orthodox Church.
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