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Why do YE Creationists insist on a simplistic literal reading of the bible?

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Loudmouth

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If the land did that most animals would go extinct. They would not evolve.

Do you believe that it takes millions of years for the desert to become a desert?

The animals that do not go extinct replace those that do, and they evolve to fill the niches left open in that environment. This happened 65 million years ago when mammals flourished after the K/T extinction event as they filled the niches left open by the now extinct dinosaurs.
 
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Loudmouth

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You mean read some particular current conclusion to evidence based on a particular presupposition that could be outdated and overturned in ten years?

Evolution dogma can take a hike.

You complain that it will be outdated and overturned, and then you call it dogma. Do you understand that you are seriously contradicting yourself?
 
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frogman2x

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It is speciation, which is an aspect of (some would say it is the aspect of) evolution. What do you think it is? And what do you think evolution is that you figure this isn't it?

The evos keep saying that but they never explain how it results in a change a specie.. How can the inability to mate be a mechanism for evolution? The KIND that no longer can mate, become extinct. The one that can keep producing salamnders. What did these salamanders eventujall evolve into? Don't forget to include the biologoy that makes it posssible.

What is it if it isn't evolution? What do you think evolution is?
Evolution is a species becoming a differet species.



A definition of evolution (for sexually reproducing species):

[QUOTE) 1.Evolution is a process that works on populations over many generations; individuals do not evolve.[/QUOTE]

That is nonsense. A group cannot evolve all at the same time. If evolution is true, an individual must change first.

2) A new offspring requires genetically compatible parents. Generally this means that the parents are the same species.

Genetically compatible parents ALWAYS produce "after its kind." That is how genetics work.

Occasionally members of closely related species can hybridize, usually with difficulty. The hybrid offspring, if it survives is usually sterile. Except for such hybrids, the offspring is the same species as the parents.

That is the usual evo mumbo jumbo. If the offspring is the same species as the paretns, there is no evolution and the hybrid, if it lives cannot continue the change. Not only that, the hybrid rabbit is still a rabbit.

3) Because it has two parents, and because of mutations and ERVs and other modifications, the offspring is not identical to either parent. Genetic differences generally manifest as physical differences.

More mumbo jumbo. Mutations ae not a mechanism for evolution. They do not add characteristics. They only alter the characteristic the kid would have gotten. The mutation did not add skin to the kid, it altered the skin the kid got.



Whatever trait you want to take the kid with, it will still be the exact same species as its parents.



The enviornment is not a mechanism for evolution. If the species cannot adapt, it becomes extinct. If it adapts, it is still the exact same species as its parents and will only produce kids that are "after its kind."


That which is presented without evidence, can be dismissed wihout evidence.
That's it. That is evolution. What in evolution is it that you are having issues with? (I suspect that it is point 6, but I have no idea what you might think is wrong with it)

Here is my whole problem with evolution: traits can only be given to the offspring if one or both parents have the gene for the trait. That is proven genetics and there are no exceptions.

Now if you can refute that fact, you will have a leg to stand on. If you are going to put your faith in mutations, then you need to provide the evidece that makes it possible.
 
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frogman2x

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How did the flood cause an ice age? You've asserted this many times, but never explained it.

There is a theory that before the flood there was a water canopy over the earth making it like a greenhouse, with constant temperatures. This water campopy was part of the water of the flood. In Gen 7:11, it is called the "floodgatesof the sky." When this canopy was no longer available, the extreem weather we get at the poles and equatator came into being.

Can we prove it. No, but this canopy kept the radiation of the sun off of those living on the earth and they started dying earlier. Before the flood men lived up to 800-900 years. After the flood the lifespan was down to 200 years in about 3-4 generations.
 
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frogman2x

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Cecal valves could hve beencause by a mutation or it could be tghe result of a recessive gene. Since you can't check for a cecal valve in the fosils, it could have been there all along. It really doesn't matter. They remainded the same species and only produced after it kind.
 
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frogman2x

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EVolution use to teach that evolution does go from less complexs to more complex. The real science shot them down so they have to change their tune. DNA has done the same thing. The more science has proven, the less likely evolution is a valid idea.
 
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OllieFranz

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And which of my six points is that? None. It seems that you are having issues with certain conclusions, not with evolution itself.
 
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OllieFranz

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And that hypothesis contradicts anything I said in that post or the previous related post how? The general rules I stated apply to your scenario just as well as to the more popular one (though the more popular scenario fits the actual evidence better).
 
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frogman2x

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There is no "evolution dogma." There is creationism, though. Actually, I just read that again, and you managed to contradict yourself in two sentences.

If you can't prove what evolution preahes, it is dogma.

If evolution is dogma, then how can it be overturned in ten years? You guys are soooooo confused, its sad to watch.

What is truly sad is evolutionists trying to prove a theory that acvtually contradicts known science. What are we sooooooo confused about? Be specific.


I haven't seen any "truth" from creationists here, and I've been posting here for years.

Try this on for size: The children cannot acquire a trait for which one or both parents did not have the gene for.


How many times do you have to be told that natural selection is a mechanism of evolution? Ten? Fifty? One Hundred???

You do no even understand your own dogma. But since you know it all, tell us how natural selection is a mechanism for evolution.

"No one has ever produced a species by mechanism of natural selection. No one has ever gotten near it ..." Colin Patterson, Cladisics," Interview on BBC, March4, 1982.
 
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Loudmouth

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EVolution use to teach that evolution does go from less complexs to more complex.

It never taught that. Evolution is just change, be it a gain or a loss in complexity.

The real science shot them down so they have to change their tune. DNA has done the same thing. The more science has proven, the less likely evolution is a valid idea.

Evidence?
 
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Split Rock

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If you can't prove what evolution preahes, it is dogma.
Since we don't prove anything in science, I guess that means all of science is dogma. Wheeeeeeeeee! I love creato-logic!


What is truly sad is evolutionists trying to prove a theory that acvtually contradicts known science. What are we sooooooo confused about? Be specific.
Evolution is entirely based on evidence and we never try to "prove" anything. If you can't get anything else into your head, please at least remember that much.


Try this on for size: The children cannot acquire a trait for which one or both parents did not have the gene for.
OK. Of course it can be from a mutation in the germ cells. They can also aquire traits that are not expressed in the parent as well. I'm not sure where you think you are going with this line of argument, but I'm sure its a Dead End.


You do no even understand your own dogma. But since you know it all, tell us how natural selection is a mechanism for evolution.
Wow... not only do I have dogma, I don't even understand it! Thank goodness you are here to explain my dogma to me!! Look up "natural selection" on the internet. I'm sure you will find a definition somewhere.
 
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OllieFranz

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The evos keep saying that but they never explain how it results in a change a specie..

I did explain. Because the population is so spread out, the environment is different in different locations. Adapting to these different environments results in different breeds developing. These different breeds only mongrelize if they get together and interbreed. The longer they remain separate, the more different they become from one another, and the harder it is for them to breed with one another. Consider the horse and the donkey or the lion and the tiger.

How can the inability to mate be a mechanism for evolution?

There is no "inability to mate." There is a difficulty to interbreed with the other breed, which becomes more and more impossible, but both breeds can still breed within their own breed and with more closely related breeds.

The KIND that no longer can mate, become extinct.

So, is it horses or donkeys that are going extinct? Lions or tigers*?

*Tigers are on the endagered list, but for other issues, not for fertility.

The one that can keep producing salamnders. What did these salamanders eventujall evolve into?

They are evolving from two breeds of one species of salamander to two separate species of salamander.

Evolution is a species becoming a differet species.

That has never been a definition of evolution. It is one way of looking at one possible effect of evolution.



That is nonsense. A group cannot evolve all at the same time. If evolution is true, an individual must change first.

Of course evolution does not happen all at once. It is an ongoing process. Two sub-populations start to divurge. At some point, while they are still one species, we judge them different enough to give them new names. At this point, they are different breeds of the same species. Later they start having trouble cross-breeding, but only trouble with certain other breeds. Still later, they can no longer cross-breed at all. Perhaps even later, the original mongrelized stock dies out or perhaps the breeds start having trouble cross-breeding with the original stock. Either way, after still more time, the breeds are completely separated and incompatable and have been for some time. A scientist studying the two populations who believes in Special Creation would swear that they are two different kinds and always have been. At every point during the process, however, two parents reproduced "after their own kind," that is, the offspring was the same species as the parents.

Genetically compatible parents ALWAYS produce "after its kind." That is how genetics work.

Good. We agree. That is what I just said

That is the usual evo mumbo jumbo. If the offspring is the same species as the paretns, there is no evolution and the hybrid, if it lives cannot continue the change. Not only that, the hybrid rabbit is still a rabbit.

So, is a mule a horse? Or maybe it's a donkey? The other parent plays no part? Or are you claiming that mules don't exist, that they are mass hallucinations, and evo mumbo jumbo"? Because mules are the type of hybrids that I am trying to account for here.

More mumbo jumbo. Mutations ae not a mechanism for evolution. They do not add characteristics. They only alter the characteristic the kid would have gotten. The mutation did not add skin to the kid, it altered the skin the kid got.

You got research to back that claim up with? I'll gladly match your research with mine if you really want to stake a "Whose is bigger" contest on this point. Now that we've mapped the genomes for several species, we can easily track mutations and their effect on genes, and prove that mutations produce brand new, inheritable traits. It is even easier to show mutations are not the only mechanism for brand new traits. I even mentioned a few of them in this point, but you ignored them.


Whatever trait you want to take the kid with, it will still be the exact same species as its parents.

Agreed. I already said that twice. That is why speciation is population process, not an individual process.


The enviornment is not a mechanism for evolution. If the species cannot adapt, it becomes extinct. If it adapts, it is still the exact same species as its parents and will only produce kids that are "after its kind."

Even Kent Hovind and other professional Creationists have had to concede the existence and implications of Ring Species. Adapting to widely divurgent environments does lead to thriving herds, and genetic changes in those far-flung sub-populations. Hovind uses rabbits rather than salamanders, sea gulls, or warblers, but it all boils down to the same thing.

That which is presented without evidence, can be dismissed wihout evidence.

Fair enough, but I need to know which part of statement 6 you are dismissing and why, so I know exactly what evidence you need.


OK, then. First let me say that for a mutation to affect inheritance, it must be heritable, and most mutations are not heritable. It is a point that many other adherents of evolution fail to make, making mutations seem more prevalent and powerful than they are. (Everything in this paragraph also applies to other means of altering the genome) If a mutation is going to be heritable, it has to occur in a seminal cell before it starts to produce gametes (sperm or eggs). Any where else, and the mutation dies with organism. The only exception is if the mutation occurs in the zygote (fertilized egg) before it divides too many times. Which is, by far, even less probable.

So for the most part, mutations are not heritable, but the the vast majority of the ones that are began as a mutation in one of the parent's seminal cells. So the offspring did inherit the mutation, even though the parent was unaffected by it, it was passed down.

One example is hemophilia in European royal families in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. It can all be traced back to Queen Victoria of England, but no further back. Royal and high noble bloodlines are well documented and there is no sign of hemophilia. A male with the gene has it. A female with one hemophiliac gene and one normal gene is a carrier. Half her sons will have it, half her daughters will be carriers. And there is no sign of hemophilia in any of Victoria's ancestors. So it was a mutation. And it was inherited, not only by Victoria, but by several daughters and at least two of her grandsons.
 
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lasthero

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Absolutely NONE of this addresses my question. I mean, it's all complete crap - water wouldn't keep out that much radiation, and the sun's radiation has never been shown to have that effect on aging; if it did, the people who spend most of their lives outside of sunlight would live longer lives, and that's not the case at all...

But I digress. Even if I assume all of this is true, every bit of it, that still does nothing to answer my question: How would a global flood cause an ice age?
 
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lasthero

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Cecal valves could hve beencause by a mutation or it could be tghe result of a recessive gene. Since you can't check for a cecal valve in the fosils, it could have been there all along.



The lizards were studied BEFORE they went on the island. They didn't have cecal valves then. They weren't there. Period. Point blank. End of story. And even if we didn't, we still have examples of the population they came from - which DON'T have cecal valves, or the DNA for it. They don't express the cecal valves when put into similar situations - only these ones do. So, no, it couldn't have 'been there all along'. If it was, the other lizards would have the DNA for it, other lizards in the species would express it. They don't. Just the ones on this island.

Cognitive dissonance is one thing, but the information is practically slapping you in the face.

It really doesn't matter.

It does. It really, really does.

They remainded the same species and only produced after it kind.

That's not even the point I'm arguing against, so I don't know why you're bringing that up. I think you're confusing me with Ollie, the guy who's currently taking the sisyphean task of trying to educate you.
 
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frogman2x

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The lizards were studied BEFORE they went on the island. They didn't have cecal valves then. They weren't there. Period. Point blank. End of story.

It is not the end of the story, it is only the beginning. What caused them to get the cecal valves? Could they still mate? Were they still lizards. If you can answser those questsion, you may have a point.


Have you never heard of recessive genes. DNA does not give traits, the genes of the parents do that. What was the DNA of each one? You are so focused on one thing , you seem to forget they ware both STILL LIZARDS

Cognitive dissonance is one thing, but the information is practically slapping you in the face.

Your snide rremarks only make you look childish and foolish. Do you not have the intellect to discuss a subject in a civil manner?

It does. It really, really does.

Why does it matter if both were still lizards?

That's not even the point I'm arguing against, so I don't know why you're bringing that up. I think you're confusing me with Ollie, the guy who's currently taking the sisyphean task of trying to educate you.

If you can't discuss our differences like an adult, go play in the street.
 
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frogman2x

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Since we don't prove anything in science, I guess that means all of science is dogma. Wheeeeeeeeee! I love creato-logic!

Those who preach that dogma have a low view of real science. How do we know there is more than one blood type? Real science has proved it. How do you know wht type you have? Real science can prove it. How do we know if you get trhe wreong type, you will die? Real science has proved it. How do we know all living things, with a few exceptions have DNA? Real scienced has proved it. Shall I go on? Wheeeeeeeeeee! I love evo-illogic

Evolution is entirely based on evidence and we never try to "prove" anything. If you can't get anything else into your head, please at least remember that much.

You need to shake you hed like try ing to get water out oof yoour ears when swimming. Tell me one thing the ToE preaches that has been proven and right here you are trying to prove evolution is true.

OK. Of course it can be from a mutation in the germ cells.

Irrelelvant. MUtations are not a mechanims for evolution. Mutations do not give the offspring new traits.

They can also aquire traits that are not expressed in the parent as well.

This is the usual evo comment. Dogmatic statgements with no evidence. Tell me how an offspringcan get a trait for which neither parent had the gene for. I think you need to do some more study on genetics 101.


[/QUOTE]I'm not sure where you think you are going with this line of argument, but I'm sure its a Dead End.[/QUOTE]

It is a dead end unless you can prove mutations are a mechanism for evolution and how the offspring can get a trait for which the parents do not have a gene.

]Wow... not only do I have dogma, I don't even understand it! Thank goodness you are here to explain my dogma to me!!

Glad to help, howeve you will need an open mind to help me release you from you false dogma.

Look up "natural selection" on the internet. I'm sure you will find a definition somewhere.

I know the definition and I know it has NEVER been proven as a mechanism for evolution. So when you are reviewing what mutations can and can't do, study what natural selecion can do and not do. Just remember to keep an open mind.

ARe you familiar with Coling Patterson? Here is what he has do say about natural selection: No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural se3lecltin. No one has ever gotten cloe---"Cladistics." Interview on BBC, March 4, 1982.
 
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biggles53

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Have you never heard of recessive genes. DNA does not give traits, the genes of the parents do that. What was the DNA of each one? You are so focused on one thing , you seem to forget they ware both STILL LIZARDS

Oh wow.............mate, that's so bad it's way past wrong......
 
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