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Frogman, the Lenski experiment is direct evidence of offspring exhibiting a trait that one of the parents (the one parent, actually, since that species of e coli reproduces asexually) did not have. And we don't even need an example that extreme--many point mutations result in birth defects that neither parent had. Stop using that as evidence--even if biologists were willing to work within your definition of kind (which would probably make all animals the same thing, which is actually still more justifiable than saying all microbes are the same), what you said still wouldn't be true.
Mutations DO NOT add traits. They alter the trait that would have occured if the mutation did not happen. Birth defects ae not traits, but th ey dod occur when there is a mutation. But the species DOES NOT CHANGE.
My definiion of kind does not make all animals the same thing. My definition says kinds can mate and produce offspring. A dog cannot mamte with a cat.
What is your definition of kind?
I did not say all microbes are the same. I said all microbes are micorbes. Just like a poodle and a bull dog are different but they are the same species.
First of all, the majority of variance in most animals is not caused by mutations. I don't think this is even a common misconception but it seems to be what you are implying here. The vast majority of the genetic mixing in vertebrate species is the result of sexual reproduction. That does not apply to this species of e coli, which reproduces asexually and does not mate. The analogy is silly on the face of it.Mutations DO NOT add traits. They alter the trait that would have occured if the mutation did not happen. Birth defects ae not traits, but th ey dod occur when there is a mutation. But the species DOES NOT CHANGE.
As I said, that species of e coli does not reproduce sexually, so your definition is (rather trivially) met. If you were actually curious about the real reason scientists have different definitions of species in different domains, this is why--the common definition of "species" loses its meaning in other domains. That is why I stressed that it doesn't actually matter which of the variants you use to try to say speciation doesn't happen, because it has happened by every scientific conception thereof.My definiion of kind does not make all animals the same thing. My definition says kinds can mate and produce offspring. A dog cannot mamte with a cat.
It's never been a pressing issue for me but I would probably say clades are the closest conceptual match. The e coli strain in this experiment resulted in three clades. If you don't like that definition, that's fine, because whatever definition you choose is not going to get around the fact of common ancestry.What is your definition of kind?
There are aerobic microbes, and also microbes for whom oxygen is toxic. There are microbes thousands of times bigger than other microbes. There are microbes that can photosynthesize and microbes that cannot. There are even microbes that use slightly different amino acids than the standard ones in their genetic code (one of the most strongly conserved traits there is). Microbes are found in any environment where we have ever found any life at all. They exhibit incredible diversity in both form and function in comparison to the staid (by comparison) macrobiological world and I didn't even scratch the surface of cataloging that documented fact. Reducing all of this to "like a poodle and a bulldog are different" is the worst kind of anthropomorphizing imaginable and has no basis in any reality-based argument about speciation. So yes, all microbes are microbes, but that says absolutely nothing about common ancestry.I did not say all microbes are the same. I said all microbes are micorbes. Just like a poodle and a bull dog are different but they are the same species.
But believing this isn't?
http://bahaisofutah.angelfire.com/adamandeve.jpg
Mutations can add traits, the experiment shows that. The e-coli could not do something before the mutation. It could do it after the mutation. E-coli that split off the mother cell before the mutation still can't do it, but every daughter cell after the mutation can. Read the links that were supplied.
But believing this isn't?
http://bahaisofutah.angelfire.com/adamandeve.jpg
So you would say that all the later bible authors that talked about Genesis in the historical true sense (accepted it as true history) and Jesus who did the same were all gullible?
1. Man made directly from dirt.What is gullible about Adam and Eve?
So, life coming from dirt is OK?Life had to start sometime and the Bible version is better than matter created itself out of nothing and then life began out of inert matter.
Give me a better explanation as to how matter originated and created life.
But they remained E-coli. Thatg is not evolution.
Use my definition and answser it for yourself: Kinds can mae and reporduce. Now I know man has tweeked some of the species so the produce a half-breed, but th mating must take place naturally.
I basically agree with your definition. However I think "kind" is as legiimate as "species in describing groups of animals.
What is gullible about Adam and Eve?
Life had to start sometime and the Bible version is better than matter created itself out of nothing and then life began out of inert matter.
Give me a better explanation as to how matter originated and created life.
Are you telling me that Jesus referenced parables in His parables?Reference to Adam and Eve does not constitute accepting the stories as literal history. Jesus spoke in parables and anaologies all the time (according to the gospels).
Are you telling me that Jesus referenced parables in His parables?
One epicycle led to another, and then another, didn't it? until the whole thing came crashing down.
No actual argument, huh?
No, a statement of fact.
mine quote: After its kind. It is in the Bible.
And it doesn't mean a thing.
Do you still think microbes are a kind?
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