why do we focas on such a meaningless virtue?

I'm not gonna sugar-coat my feelings on this. I'm strongly disappointed with what I saw when I opened this section of the forum. I'm just curious... how has virtues and morel ethics been reduced to sexuality and sexuality alone? According to Scripture sexuality is one of the LEAST important things to worry about. Sexuality is mentioned maybe 5 times in the new testament and homosexuality is mentioned once. I dunno.... I'm just kind of sick and tired of seeing this again and again and again. I'm sick of seeing people define a good man on the basis that he can keep himself out of bed. For crying out loud isn't there OTHER virtues that make up a good person?

Masked_Chris said:

For crying out loud isn't there OTHER virtues that make up a good person?

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One would think so, but apparently not.

Because alot of people are very sexually repressed. They've been raised to believe that sexuality is taboo.

Yes, there are other virtues besides sexual purity. The other virtues have larger effects on those around us sometimes too.

Masked_Chris said:

I'm not gonna sugar-coat my feelings on this. I'm strongly disappointed with what I saw when I opened this section of the forum. I'm just curious... how has virtues and morel ethics been reduced to sexuality and sexuality alone? According to Scripture sexuality is one of the LEAST important things to worry about. Sexuality is mentioned maybe 5 times in the new testament and homosexuality is mentioned once. I dunno.... I'm just kind of sick and tired of seeing this again and again and again. I'm sick of seeing people define a good man on the basis that he can keep himself out of bed. For crying out loud isn't there OTHER virtues that make up a good person?

Click to expand...

I don't know, I was hoping someone can give me an answer to this question.

Homosexuality provides bigotted religionists with a convenient soft target. They can feel righteous about fighting evil and at absolutely zero threat to their own pleasurable sins.

Less than 10% of the population is gay and much less than that want to marry but over 60% (and rising) of Americans (And Australians, and British..) are overweight and obese due to the glut of cheap food. Ask yourself which is really doing damage to society.

Why would secularists debate on any other virtue?

Tenka said:

Homosexuality provides bigotted religionists with a convenient soft target. They can feel righteous about fighting evil and at absolutely zero threat to their own pleasurable sins.

Less than 10% of the population is gay and much less than that want to marry but over 60% (and rising) of Americans (And Australians, and British..) are overweight and obese due to the glut of cheap food. Ask yourself which is really doing damage to society.

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*gives around of applause* This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

I'm a Christian myself but I think the whole sexuality thing is an attempt to avoid dealing with injustice rather than confronting injustice. The system, as you've said, is simple. Focus on tiny tiny problems that really don't effect us so we can escape the reality of real and truly threatening problems. The fact that America consumes 95% of the world's food supply and throws 50% of that in the trash is much more than enough to give every American [Christian or non-christian] a reason to repent.

NHI said:

Why would secularists debate on any other virtue?

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well because sexuality is simply unimportant! We have alot of people suffering and dying because of sins like gluttony and murder and indulgence. Remember? Sin is in and of itself selfish.... every single sin causes someone to suffer in some way or another. sexual sins cause people to suffer, but it's not even close to being the top ten.

It's always easier to point out those who aren't likely to fight back in defense...there are VERY few people who are open on this board about their sexuality for good reason, and those who are, even in my days of getting to know them, have taken countless jabs for such.

Abortion and homosexuality. You think all the extremists would support homosexuality: it means there's no issue for abortion! Vice-versa!

I am fed up with it too...I suppose it's always amusing to point out obvious flaws in others...it helps one to know how to better cover their own.

Tenka said:

Homosexuality provides bigotted religionists with a convenient soft target. They can feel righteous about fighting evil and at absolutely zero threat to their own pleasurable sins.

Less than 10% of the population is gay and much less than that want to marry but over 60% (and rising) of Americans (And Australians, and British..) are overweight and obese due to the glut of cheap food. Ask yourself which is really doing damage to society.

Click to expand...

I think homosexuality is an easy target because of the 'icky' factor, namely the idea of someone sticking a penis in the other hole. also i think it also has to do with the fact that most men do not like the idea of being the receiver, it makes them think they are weak
thats a pretty universal idea though, in greek culture thousands of years ago, homosexuality was a common practice, but it was an insult to be considered woman-like

as for being obese, i agree, blame it on our cultural need to always be moving and doing, and having no interest in healthy food

There's a variety of factors I think.

First and foremost is probably that such topics have always generated discussion here, so it's a guarantee that your thread will get attention.

There is also the fact that sexuality is a point of contention among the various viewpoints here. In a lot of other issues we are disagreeing on the particulars. Everyone agrees (I think) that we should help the poor for instance, that almsgiving and whatnot is good. On most issues there is that basic agreement at least the premise level. But with sexuality there are two incompatible viewpoints at war with each other that at no point agree. At a simple level I think I would class one as being based on negative commands, i.e. as long as you don't do this this or that feel free to do whatever, and the other being based on positive commands, i.e. seeing a specific time and purpose of sex which should be strived for.

Thirdly I think that there are more misunderstandings on both sides here than in most other issues, which makes people anxious to set the record straight. But they usually don't or perhaps post misunderstandings of their own which keeps the process going.

Persecuting homosexuality, when you aren't so inclined yourself, is a feel-good operation for people obsessed with 'sin'. I'm sure there's an element of "Well, at least I've avoided committing that sin, even in my thoughts!" involved.

Which of course ought to lead to a bit of reflection on the persecutor's part about beams and motes, but seemingly never does.

Masked_Chris said:

I'm not gonna sugar-coat my feelings on this. I'm strongly disappointed with what I saw when I opened this section of the forum. I'm just curious... how has virtues and morel ethics been reduced to sexuality and sexuality alone? According to Scripture sexuality is one of the LEAST important things to worry about. Sexuality is mentioned maybe 5 times in the new testament and homosexuality is mentioned once. I dunno.... I'm just kind of sick and tired of seeing this again and again and again. I'm sick of seeing people define a good man on the basis that he can keep himself out of bed. For crying out loud isn't there OTHER virtues that make up a good person?

Click to expand...

Your count on how often sexual guidance/immorality is covered by Christian teaching is off by a large degree, however I don't think an actual number would be worth going into.

But I am a little curious, were you assuming that a thread discussing/debating threads centered around sexual aspects is much different than the others being given an objection?

If I was doing a tally of the threads and what they were about, I would probably include this one as among the others with a sexual focus. It would just be one making assertions that sexual morality/immorality was now moved down to a new importance level.

Masked_Chris said:

*gives around of applause* This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

I'm a Christian myself but I think the whole sexuality thing is an attempt to avoid dealing with injustice rather than confronting injustice. The system, as you've said, is simple. Focus on tiny tiny problems that really don't effect us so we can escape the reality of real and truly threatening problems. The fact that America consumes 95% of the world's food supply and throws 50% of that in the trash is much more than enough to give every American [Christian or non-christian] a reason to repent.

Click to expand...

If I read the above correctly, you applaud the presumption to speak for most of the participant's unspoken and unrelated intentions, their guilt, assert what isn't important in Christian teaching along with what a (American) Christian's focus should be... I assume the assertion(s) are identical to your own focus or hierarchy of importance/non-importance.

I'm not finding the liberties taken or authority presumed by the above as being appropriate or substantiated. Would you happen to have any revelation from Christian teaching to share with those (American) Christians to pinpoint just how right you are and how wrong (presumably 'all Americans') "they" are? Something that you can show all of them that they are guilty as you say and you can show them where your opinion is correct by all considerations?

well because sexuality is simply unimportant! We have alot of people suffering and dying because of sins like gluttony and murder and indulgence. Remember? Sin is in and of itself selfish.... every single sin causes someone to suffer in some way or another. sexual sins cause people to suffer, but it's not even close to being the top ten.

Click to expand...

Are we to assume that your opinion of the verse below is that Jesus was simply confused and didn't have your priority list?

Matthew 15:16-20
16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
~~~

Or how about this part where Jesus must have made a mistake in having sexual content in a short list?:

Matthew 19:16-19
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
~~~

BTW - Since you mentioned a top ten list... I must assume that you are not even aware that sexual morality would be covered in the Decalogue and applies by several perspectives through more than just one or two line items from a "list". Perhaps remembering a couple principals will spark something - break one, break them all / Love God with all of your heart, mind, body and soul, etc.


Don't get me wrong, I understand how tiring it is to see the same old garbage being argued over and over in E&M and other places, but that is the action/reaction nature of things when a site asserts its focus is Christian-based and welcomes assertions and opinion that are contradictory to Christianity for discussed/debated.

But what has been done in this OP was make assertions that are easily shown as false (your claims of unimportant) and presumes to assign guilt to a large body of souls because of an abstract reason you apparently believe is a conviction. I don't doubt that non-Christians will love or welcome you for the claims or view, but I'm not seeing the use of vague alleged friendly-fire as right in basis, target or method.

ChristianCenturion said:

Your count on how often sexual guidance/immorality is covered by Christian teaching is off by a large degree, however I don't think an actual number would be worth going into.

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than you would be wrong. Yes Christian teachings cover other topics.... but sexuality is well-over 50% of the focus when the bible focuses not even 1% of it's time on sexuality.

But I am a little curious, were you assuming that a thread discussing/debating threads centered around sexual aspects is much different than the others being given an objection?

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no i wasn't assuming this, I knew what I was doing.

If I was doing a tally of the threads and what they were about, I would probably include this one as among the others with a sexual focus. It would just be one making assertions that sexual morality/immorality was now moved down to a new importance level.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't. The other threads talk about the right and wrong spect. this one's about the culture of it. The 2 aren't even in the same feild of study.

If I read the above correctly, you applaud the presumption to speak for most of the participant's unspoken and unrelated intentions, their guilt, assert what isn't important in Christian teaching along with what a (American) Christian's focus should be... I assume the assertion(s) are identical to your own focus or hierarchy of importance/non-importance.

Click to expand...

would I be wrong? Look... I'm an American myself. However I used that as an example to point out that greed and gluttony are far more of problem causing sin than sexuality.

I'm not finding the liberties taken or authority presumed by the above as being appropriate or substantiated. Would you happen to have any revelation from Christian teaching to share with those (American) Christians to pinpoint just how right you are and how wrong (presumably 'all Americans') "they" are? Something that you can show all of them that they are guilty as you say and you can show them where your opinion is correct by all considerations?

Click to expand...

I may have posted this in an authority i don't have msyelf... but please don't attack my charecter. I don't look at Americans the way your assuming I'm looking at them. I only said what I said once... so don't put words in my mouth.

Are we to assume that your opinion of the verse below is that Jesus was simply confused and didn't have your priority list?

Matthew 15:16-20
16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
~~~

Click to expand...

yes.... but sexaulity is only ONE of the things listed and it's not listed as being in a more important aspect as theft and slander.

Or how about this part where Jesus must have made a mistake in having sexual content in a short list?:

Matthew 19:16-19
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Click to expand...

~~~

again.... what I stated above implies.

BTW - Since you mentioned a top ten list... I must assume that you are not even aware that sexual morality would be covered in the Decalogue and applies by several perspectives through more than just one or two line items from a "list". Perhaps remembering a couple principals will spark something - break one, break them all / Love God with all of your heart, mind, body and soul, etc.


Don't get me wrong, I understand how tiring it is to see the same old garbage being argued over and over in E&M and other places, but that is the action/reaction nature of things when a site asserts its focus is Christian-based and welcomes assertions and opinion that are contradictory to Christianity for discussed/debated.

But what has been done in this OP was make assertions that are easily shown as false (your claims of unimportant) and presumes to assign guilt to a large body of souls because of an abstract reason you apparently believe is a conviction. I don't doubt that non-Christians will love or welcome you for the claims or view, but I'm not seeing the use of vague alleged friendly-fire as right in basis, target or method.

Click to expand...

no... i can admit this. Maybe I worded myself wrong. Sexuality isn't less important than the others I agree... but it's certainly not more important either.

Masked_Chris said:

I'm not gonna sugar-coat my feelings on this. I'm strongly disappointed with what I saw when I opened this section of the forum. I'm just curious... how has virtues and morel ethics been reduced to sexuality and sexuality alone? According to Scripture sexuality is one of the LEAST important things to worry about. Sexuality is mentioned maybe 5 times in the new testament and homosexuality is mentioned once. I dunno.... I'm just kind of sick and tired of seeing this again and again and again. I'm sick of seeing people define a good man on the basis that he can keep himself out of bed. For crying out loud isn't there OTHER virtues that make up a good person?

Click to expand...

I agree...I actually made a similar thread...but I guess that since there was no "SEX" in it, it fell back into the forgotten section.

Tenka said:

Homosexuality provides bigotted religionists with a convenient soft target. They can feel righteous about fighting evil and at absolutely zero threat to their own pleasurable sins.

Less than 10% of the population is gay and much less than that want to marry but over 60% (and rising) of Americans (And Australians, and British..) are overweight and obese due to the glut of cheap food. Ask yourself which is really doing damage to society.

Click to expand...

Exactly! It doesn't hurt to pay attention to the people who focus on sexual sin:

Jerry Falwell was far from thin. Many others like him are much wealthier than men of the cloth should be.

I think its a bit of a vicious cycle- people are sexually repressed, making sexual sin an easy target to focus on for criticism. The focus on sexual sin then causes people to become more repressed.

I don't mean to turn this into a political debate, but I honestly believe the "Christian conservatives" should spend less time worrying about gay marriage and more time worring about whether it's right to keep people poor or to wage a pre-emptive war and kill innocent people in the process.

elcapitan said:

I think its a bit of a vicious cycle- people are sexually repressed, making sexual sin an easy target to focus on for criticism. The focus on sexual sin then causes people to become more repressed.

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Romans 7: 8-10 NIV

8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.



this vicious cycle has always been the curse of the law. The law is good because without it we have no right or wrong or any knowledge that we do either... but the law itself becomes a snare and a temptation to do the very thing it's telling us not to. The purpose of the law is to keep a Christian on the right path only AFTER his heart is released from it's waywardness... for only than can we understand the true purpose of the law and it will save us from following the law for the sake of the law. Where we serve the law instead of Christ.

OddBeani said:

Abortion and homosexuality. You think all the extremists would support homosexuality: it means there's no issue for abortion! Vice-versa!

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I think that all this talk about sex reflects on how fleshly some of us truly are....it's gotten to the point where people are obsessed with sex....which is wrong, there are more important things to worry about.

We SHOULD be talking about the other virtues and vices too.