Why do they hate the First Amendment?

HappyHealthyHolyRoller · Nov 3, 2008

OphidiaPhile said:
You know exactly what I am saying which is the majority were not Christian of the founding Fathers.

There's a thread in the Physical and Life Sciences forum, where you go on to say that high-ranking people like Newton, Leibniz and Galileo were Christians only because everyone back then were Christians. Now you're saying the high-ranking people back then were not Christians, am I correct on this?
Of course they were Christians. So are the scientists I mentioned.

<staff edit>

OphidiaPhile · Nov 3, 2008

HappyHealthyHolyRoller said:
There's a thread in the Physical and Life Sciences forum, where you go on to say that high-ranking people like Newton, Leibniz and Galileo were Christians only because everyone back then were Christians. Now you're saying the high-ranking people back then were not Christians, am I correct on this?
Of course they were Christians. So are the scientists I mentioned.

Do you now see why we as Christians must warn people about parasites such as yourself? You are slated for destruction in Hell after your physical, anthropological body ceases functioning (cancer, cardiac arrest, car accident). We do not want you to bring others to that pit with you. For this reason this forum was created and for this reason I, and others, am here.

So we are talking about the founding fathers of the US and you comment on Newton, Galileo and Leibniz who were not American, that makes no sense whatsoever. And yes the majority of the founding fathers were not Christian.

Famous Atheists
Abraham Lincoln
Albert Einstein
Charles Darwin
Benjamin Franklin
Carl Sagan
Bertrand Russell
Galileo
Freidrich Nietzsche
DR. James Watson
Mark Twain
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Edison
William Howard Taft
Thomas Paine
Sigmund Freud
Thomas Henry Huxley
Percy Shelley
Richard Leaky
Noam Chomsky
Dr. Francis Crick
Linus Pauling
William Shatner
Jack Nicholson
Bill Gates
Marie Curie
Warren Buffett
Katherine Hepburn
Jamie Hyneman (mythbusters)
Ron Reagan Jr.
Charles Schultz
John Lennon
James Madison
Richard Dawkins
Stephen Hawking
Alfred Kinsey

And this is but a very partial list.

Museveni · Nov 3, 2008

Nietzsche might not be a very good posterchild for Atheism though

OphidiaPhile · Nov 3, 2008

Museveni said:
Nietzsche might not be a very good posterchild for Atheism though

He may not be a good poster child for anything actually.

TeddyKGB · Nov 3, 2008

HappyHealthyHolyRoller said:
There's a thread in the Physical and Life Sciences forum, where you go on to say that high-ranking people like Newton, Leibniz and Galileo were Christians only because everyone back then were Christians. Now you're saying the high-ranking people back then were not Christians, am I correct on this?
Of course they were Christians. So are the scientists I mentioned.

Crazy talk.

Of the Founders, the following were almost certainly deists: Adams, Madison, Paine, Hamilton.

Of the Founders, the following, if it could be said that they were at all Christian, were surpassingly heterodox: Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, Ethan Allen.

That looks to me like a list of those who did the bulk of the heavy lifting, so to speak, in the post-Revolution colonies. In further support is the language of the Declaration of Independence, whose scant religious references are nonetheless textbook Enlightenment deism.

Do you now see why we as Christians must warn people about parasites such as yourself? You are slated for destruction in Hell after your physical, anthropological body ceases functioning (cancer, cardiac arrest, car accident). We do not want you to bring others to that pit with you. For this reason this forum was created and for this reason I, and others, am here.

When you accomplish this, will you say, "This house is clean!"?

Funny Fundie · Nov 3, 2008

So I'd think that Issac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Charles Darwin and other great physicists can present to the world as fine witnesses of the Gospel, since all of them were indeed Christians. If these great men were also great men of God, what, I wonder, would be stopping any person of a sane mind from at least starting a faith in God.

Saying, "well, those scientists lived back in the day when everyone believed in God" is no excuse, because some other posters here already shown that atheism knows no time boundaries.

If Issac Newton and Wilhelm Liebniz can have faith in our Risen Savior, why can't you guys?

OphidiaPhile · Nov 3, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
So I'd think that Issac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Charles Darwin and other great physicists can present to the world as fine witnesses of the Gospel, since all of them were indeed Christians. If these great men were also great men of God, what, I wonder, would be stopping any person of a sane mind from at least starting a faith in God.

Saying, "well, those scientists lived back in the day when everyone believed in God" is no excuse, because some other posters here already shown that atheism knows no time boundaries.

If Issac Newton and Wilhelm Liebniz can have faith in our Risen Savior, why can't you guys?

Quoted from Darwin
From the age of forty he was, to use his own words, a complete dis-believer in Christianity. He professed himself an Agnostic, regarding the problem of the universe as beyond our solution, "For myself," he wrote, "I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities."
"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Quoted in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science by Michael Shermer.

And since Einstein and most modern scientists do not believe that would seem to trump the few that did.

Funny Fundie · Nov 3, 2008

OphidiaPhile said:
Quoted from Darwin
From the age of forty he was, to use his own words, a complete dis-believer in Christianity. He professed himself an Agnostic, regarding the problem of the universe as beyond our solution, "For myself," he wrote, "I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities."
"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Quoted in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science by Michael Shermer.

And since Einstein and most modern scientists do not believe that would seem to trump the few that did.

This is scrambled eggs. Your thinking, that is.
First you say that everyone back when our country was founded was a secularist. Now you are saying the opposite, that most modern people are secularists. Can you not see how your thinking is dysfunctional? Are you not the least bit embarrassed or troubled by this dysfunction?

You can always pray that the Spirit of an almighty God show you wisdom and direction. This always works for me when others point to the errors of my ways.

You have to make a decision sooner or later.

OphidiaPhile · Nov 3, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
This is scrambled eggs. Your thinking, that is.
First you say that everyone back when our country was founded was a secularist. Now you are saying the opposite, that most modern people are secularists. Can you not see how your thinking is dysfunctional? Are you not the least bit embarrassed or troubled by this dysfunction?

You can always pray that the Spirit of an almighty God show you wisdom and direction. This always works for me when others point to the errors of my ways.

You have to make a decision sooner or later.

You just do not get it at all, I am saying that ignorant masses have always been more likely to be Christian and that the founding fathers of this country were much less likely to believe in fairy tales just as modern scientists, philosophers and others with the capacity to reason. My point is that most people that believe in a god are not very rational.

I am honestly ashamed and embarrassed that the US is so full of ignorant people that believe in an ancient fairy tale, it absolutely disgusts me that there are so many stupid people.

Funny Fundie · Nov 3, 2008

Newton and leibniz are not ignorant masses, dude.

OphidiaPhile · Nov 3, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
Newton and leibniz are not ignorant masses, dude.

They obviously had flaws in their logic.

Morcova · Nov 3, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
Newton and leibniz are not ignorant masses, dude.

Newton was an alchemist.. not exactly the more up to date fellow even for his time.

TeddyKGB · Nov 4, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
So I'd think that Issac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Charles Darwin and other great physicists can present to the world as fine witnesses of the Gospel, since all of them were indeed Christians. If these great men were also great men of God, what, I wonder, would be stopping any person of a sane mind from at least starting a faith in God.

You go ahead and cite Newton and Darwin as model Christians. I'll make sure to come back to this post when you find out what they really believed.

Funny Fundie · Nov 4, 2008

OphidiaPhile said:
They obviously had flaws in their logic.

I'd rank this as your typical secular/non-Christian posting: defend a failing stance no matter how false or misleading.

It also tells us that when it comes to casting our votes, we must always vote Christians into office, because the Christian may or may not lie, but non-Christians (as this post proves) always lie. They will invest tremendous energies in their defense of their lies. For this reason we must always vote in Christianity and ethics; never vote in a skeptic or secularist.

Funny Fundie · Nov 4, 2008

TeddyKGB said:
You go ahead and cite Newton and Darwin as model Christians.

Okay, I think I will. Read. Weep:

"Newton has been regarded as the founding examplar of physical science, his achievements being as innovative as those in mathematical research. With greater energy and originality he also plunged into theology; among his special studies was an investigation of the form and dimensions, as described in the Bible, of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem."

And:

Newton also wrote on Christian prophecy, whose decipherment was essential, he thought, to the understanding of God. His book on the subject represented lifelong study. Its message was that Christianity went astray in the 4th century AD, when the first Council of Nicaea propounded erroneous doctrines of the nature of Christ. He possessed a deep religious sense. In late editions of his scientific works he expressed a strong sense of God's providential role in nature.

http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html

Funny Fundie · Nov 4, 2008

A true example of a crime against humanity: Issac Newton never sired a child.

TeddyKGB · Nov 4, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
Newton also wrote on Christian prophecy, whose decipherment was essential, he thought, to the understanding of God. His book on the subject represented lifelong study. Its message was that Christianity went astray in the 4th century AD, when the first Council of Nicaea propounded erroneous doctrines of the nature of Christ. He possessed a deep religious sense. In late editions of his scientific works he expressed a strong sense of God's providential role in nature.

http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html

Oh, the impenetrable and ineffable fundamentalist mind. What possessed you to conclude that I would not follow your link and thereby learn that the full text of the passage quoted above is thus:

Newton also wrote on Judaeo-Christian prophecy, whose decipherment was essential, he thought, to the understanding of God. His book on the subject, which was reprinted well into the Victorian Age, represented lifelong study. Its message was that Christianity went astray in the 4th century AD, when the first Council of Nicaea propounded erroneous doctrines of the nature of Christ. The full extent of Newton's unorthodoxy was recognized only in the present century: but although a critic of accepted Trinitarian dogmas and the Council of Nicaea, he possessed a deep religious sense, venerated the Bible and accepted its account of creation. In late editions of his scientific works he expressed a strong sense of God's providential role in nature.

See the difference? The section there whose omission can only be explained by deliberate subterfuge on your part?

TeddyKGB · Nov 4, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
I'd rank this as your typical secular/non-Christian posting: defend a failing stance no matter how false or misleading.

It also tells us that when it comes to casting our votes, we must always vote Christians into office, because the Christian may or may not lie, but non-Christians (as this post proves) always lie. They will invest tremendous energies in their defense of their lies.

You speak the truth.

For this reason we must always vote in Christianity and ethics;

A shame that the two so rarely coincide in the same politician.

Morcova · Nov 4, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
Okay, I think I will. Read. Weep:

"Newton has been regarded as the founding examplar of physical science, his achievements being as innovative as those in mathematical research. With greater energy and originality he also plunged into theology; among his special studies was an investigation of the form and dimensions, as described in the Bible, of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem."

And:

Newton also wrote on Christian prophecy, whose decipherment was essential, he thought, to the understanding of God. His book on the subject represented lifelong study. Its message was that Christianity went astray in the 4th century AD, when the first Council of Nicaea propounded erroneous doctrines of the nature of Christ. He possessed a deep religious sense. In late editions of his scientific works he expressed a strong sense of God's providential role in nature.

http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html

One has to be a christian now to write on christianity? Is this really all you have to prove that he was a exemplary christian?

tcampen · Nov 4, 2008

Funny Fundie said:
Just one day spent traversing the Mall in Washington, D.C., would expose you guys to an undeniable fact of American history: Biblical and religious quotations, including the Ten Commandments, adorn nearly every significant building and monument in our nation's capital. Indeed, the role of faith, family and freedom in American history is inscribed on monuments across the length and breadth of Washington, D.C. For instance, the words of Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, carved in granite, thunder from inside the Memorial that bears his name, praying that the "mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away" but recalling that "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." At the National Archives are the words "What is past is prologue," inlaid at the Archives' entrance is a bronze medallion of the Ten Commandments.

--------------

My, how the irreligious zealots and secularists have damaged the integrity and heritage of this country!

Fundi,
Take it from someone who lived in D.C. for several years and visited the places you mention many times. I studied law there and became more
appreciative of the founding of our nation than ever before. I came to understand our founders were very religious people, but their religious diversity was much greater than what religious-right revisionists would have school children believe.

Our founders were rarely the fundamentalists we observe today. Many were practicing christians and held to orthodoxy, but many others clearly rejected the diety of Jesus, the direct involvement of god into our lives, and the infallibility of the bible. But universally, almost none of them advocated for Christianity being recognized as the official state religion. Even the most devote were fearful of it. Read Madison and his views on the 1st Amendment. Read John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, neither of whom were Christian. Look at the practices and statements of George Washington, who in all probability was a deist himself, as was Lincoln.

If you look at the Declaration of Independence, you'll find references to "nature's God" - a clear ode to the deistic concept of god revealed by nature and reason, NOT the bible or any other religious text. This is the god our founders agreed to recognize as a group, not the specific Judeo-Christian model.

I'll agree with you that some have become hypersensitive to the invocation of God in the public square. But the god promoted in modern times is never "nature's god", but the god of the bible. I have no doubt our founders would cringe at the attempts of a few to use the public square to promote their very particular religious views to the many.

Jefferson, in particular, is already rolling over in his grave.

Why do they hate the First Amendment?

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