Why do people reject Christ?

nobdysfool · Apr 6, 2007

Van said:
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Behold, folks, the fruit of RT for all to see.

And what exactly is that supposed to mean? Your unreasoned hatred of RT is wearing quite thin. Either post something sustantial to back it up, or refrain from personal attacks and insults against another's beliefs.

IamAdopted · Apr 6, 2007

What is RT?

nobdysfool · Apr 6, 2007

IamAdopted said:
What is RT?

RT is Van's shorthand for Reformed Theology, which is often equated with Calvinism, although there are some differences. Covenant Theology would be another nearly equivalent term.

IamAdopted · Apr 6, 2007

nobdysfool said:
RT is Van's shorthand for Reformed Theology, which is often equated with Calvinism, although there are some differences. Covenant Theology would be another nearly equivalent term.

Awe I see thank you. Now I understand tee hee.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

NBF, you charge me with "unreasoned hatred" of the false doctrines of RT. Why attack me personnally, to diminish my arguments with ad hominems?

NBF said:
Certainly pride is one possible reason, but there are bound to be others, such as fear, deception (more prevalent than we'd like to think), and a conscience that is seared, from repeated sin, to the point where there is no reaching them, God having given them over to the evil they desire so strongly.

I quoted you and pointed out that your view was the fruit of RT. Now if your posted view is not consistent with RT, I stand corrected. However, you are an advocate of RT, and therefore your lack of concern for the lost in Muslin countries, after all they are perishing and that is according to your understanding of God's will for them, seems to be the fruit of your mistaken view of scripture. We are to pray for our enemies, to make disciples of all nations, we are to follow Christ not to the last supper, but all the way to the cross. He died for all men, including each and every Muslin, even those who think cutting off our heads would be pleasing to God. He desires all men to be saved. The gospel of Christ.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

Hi BIC, John 3:19 does not say all men, it just says men. You are rewriting scripture to fit the false doctrines of RT.

nobdysfool · Apr 7, 2007

Van said:
NBF, you charge me with "unreasoned hatred" of the false doctrines of RT.

With plenty of substantiation. You are not the RT expert you want everyone to believe you are.

Van said:
Why attack me personnally, to diminish my arguments with ad hominems?

Hel-LO! Pot - kettle - black! What you call an ad hominem is a documented fact, Van. Anyone who has read more than a couple of your posts will see that you express not just opposition to RT, but outright hatred, based on the perjoratives you attach to every mention of it. You cannot seem to make any mention of RT without attaching the word "mistaken" or "false" , or observations like "ripping snippets of scripture out of context", "twisting", "distorting", "ignoring", and on and on. You're not content to simply state that you disagree, you must try to establish a connection in the reader's mind between RT and less-than-honest practices, deception, and a host of other perjoratives. You express disdain and disrespect for any viewpoint which opposes or challenges your own.

Van said:
I quoted you and pointed out that your view was the fruit of RT.

You forgot the words "in my opinion". Rather, you intended to put me on the defensive.

Van said:
Now if your posted view is not consistent with RT, I stand corrected.

You are not the arbiter of what is and isn't RT. You have an opinion, and that is your right. But you neglect to present it as such, but try to present it as a foregone conclusion. That you do not have the right to do.

Van said:
However, you are an advocate of RT, and therefore your lack of concern for the lost in Muslin countries, after all they are perishing and that is according to your understanding of God's will for them, seems to be the fruit of your mistaken view of scripture.

And you know this to be my view, exactly how? By assuming it, based on a distorted and false view of RT. You have stepped across the line here, and I demand an apology from you, publicly for presuming to know what I personally do or don't believe concerning the lost in Muslim countries.

This is a presumptive sin on your part, for I made no reference to any particular group of people other than to expand on your "one size fits all" idea that the ONLY reason anyone rejects Christ is because of personal pride. If you would go back and read my post without your biased assumptions about what I "must" believe because I support RT, you might understand what I actually said.

Van said:
We are to pray for our enemies, to make disciples of all nations, we are to follow Christ not to the last supper, but all the way to the cross. He died for all men, including each and every Muslin, even those who think cutting off our heads would be pleasing to God. He desires all men to be saved. The gospel of Christ.

Van, Where did I ever say that we are NOT to do so? Where have I ever advocated turning our back on them? Where have I ever done that? Cite the post. Cite my words. Prove that I have ever advocated what you falsely accuse me of. PROVE IT!

You owe me a public apology for misrepresentation, and falsehoods you have accused me of. You have gone beyond the pale here, and I am calling you on your sin, publicly, because you sinned against me, publicly.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

Here it is again folks, the godless view of NBF, and the fruit of RT.

Certainly pride is one possible reason, but there are bound to be others, such as fear, deception (more prevalent than we'd like to think), and a conscience that is seared, from repeated sin, to the point where there is no reaching them, God having given them over to the evil they desire so strongly.

Folks, scripture teaches in passage after passage that people reject Christ because of pride. They can be reached, their fate is not foreordained, for God gives grace to the humble and God's command is that we humble ourselves before Him.

NBF, You owe me a public apology for misrepresentation, and falsehoods you have accused me of. You have gone beyond the pale here, and I am calling you on your sin, publicly, because you sinned against me, publicly.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

I quoted you and pointed out that your view was the fruit of RT. Now if your posted view is not consistent with RT, I stand corrected. However, you are an advocate of RT, and therefore your lack of concern for the lost in Muslin countries, after all they are perishing and that is according to your understanding of God's will for them, seems to be the fruit of your mistaken view of scripture. We are to pray for our enemies, to make disciples of all nations, we are to follow Christ not to the last supper, but all the way to the cross. He died for all men, including each and every Muslin, even those who think cutting off our heads would be pleasing to God. He desires all men to be saved. The gospel of Christ.

nobdysfool · Apr 7, 2007

Van said:
I quoted you and pointed out that your view was the fruit of RT. Now if your posted view is not consistent with RT, I stand corrected. However, you are an advocate of RT, and therefore your lack of concern for the lost in Muslin countries, after all they are perishing and that is according to your understanding of God's will for them, seems to be the fruit of your mistaken view of scripture. We are to pray for our enemies, to make disciples of all nations, we are to follow Christ not to the last supper, but all the way to the cross. He died for all men, including each and every Muslin, even those who think cutting off our heads would be pleasing to God. He desires all men to be saved. The gospel of Christ.

Again with the mindless repetition, as though your word is the final word. Your continued slurs and falsehoods against me will not stand.

Folks, Van falsely accuses me of holding a "godless" view, which is utterly false, and has obviously refused to apologize for his mischaracterization of me, and his false accusations regarding not only me, but Reformed Theology, and by inferrence, anyone who holds to the doctrines of Reformed theology in good conscience.

Van has not only insulted me, but also all Refomed believers, and owes us all an apology for the sinful false accusations he has made.

nobdysfool · Apr 7, 2007

Van said:
However, you are an advocate of RT, and therefore your lack of concern for the lost in Muslin countries, after all they are perishing and that is according to your understanding of God's will for them, seems to be the fruit of your mistaken view of scripture.

Van, Where did I ever say that we are NOT to do pray for them? Where have I ever advocated turning our back on them? Where have I ever done that? Cite the post. Cite my words. Prove that I have ever advocated what you falsely accuse me of. PROVE IT!

You owe me a public apology for misrepresentation, and falsehoods you have accused me of. You have gone beyond the pale here, and I am calling you on your sin, publicly, because you sinned against me, publicly.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

NBF insults all godly Christians with his godless view, that God has given the muslims over such that "there is no reaching them." No, that is a godless view. God desires all men to be saved, and we are to go to all nations, including Muslim nations.

NBF owes all Christians an apology for denying the gospel to the lost.

Here is what NBF said: "Certainly pride is one possible reason, but there are bound to be others, such as fear, deception (more prevalent than we'd like to think), and a conscience that is seared, from repeated sin, to the point where there is no reaching them, God having given them over to the evil they desire so strongly."

nobdysfool · Apr 7, 2007

Van said:
NBF insults all godly Christians with his godless view, that God has given the muslims over such that "there is no reaching them." No, that is a godless view. God desires all men to be saved, and we are to go to all nations, including Muslim nations.

NBF owes all Christians an apology for denying the gospel to the lost.

Here is what NBF said: "Certainly pride is one possible reason, but there are bound to be others, such as fear, deception (more prevalent than we'd like to think), and a conscience that is seared, from repeated sin, to the point where there is no reaching them, God having given them over to the evil they desire so strongly."

Van thinks to poison the discussion by accusing my view, which he does not personally know, but has extrapolated to be the RT view, and thus insulted all RT belivers falsely. Van cannot cite one post where I have ever said what he accuses me of, nor will he be able to. Van also wants to portray what I said as unbiblcal despite scripture which clearly states:

And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (Rom 1:28)

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; (1Ti 4:1-2)

I did not speak this of Muslims, as Van falsely accuses, but I answered his assertion that pride was the sole reason that people reject Jesus, and pointed out the scriptural truths of fear, deception, and that some had been given over to reprobate minds already, which would prevent them from receiving christ. I did not, nor does RT, profess to know who such individuals might be. We are charged to preach the Gospel to every creature. It is not our responsibility to convert them, that's God's job. We are to preach the Gospel to all, and God will save those He will save.

Van has falsely accused me of a position I do not hold, and has done so publicly, and now thinks to resist being called out on his error, and is once again engaging in the guilt-by-association fallacy to defend his sinful behavior.

Van, you owe me, and all Reformed believers, a public apology for your wilfull and false accusations against me and against Reformed Theology and it's adherents, for the falsehoods and lies you have attributed to me and to all Reformed Believers.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

Folks, the only one poisoning the discussion here is NBF, who posts ungodly views and then denies they are ungodly.

NBF said:
I did not speak this of Muslims, as Van falsely accuses, but I answered his assertion that pride was the sole reason that people reject Jesus, and pointed out the scriptural truths of fear, deception, and that some had been given over to reprobate minds already, which would prevent them from receiving christ.

Folks, go back to page 6 and read posts #53, 54, and 55. NBF addressed his remarks to Muslims, but was expressing his view of all the lost.

NBF, please stop defiling the gospel of Christ. He died for those Muslims, each and every one of them. Christ is the propitiation of the whole world. God desires all men to be saved.

nobdysfool · Apr 7, 2007

Van said:
Folks, the only one poisoning the discussion here is NBF, who posts ungodly views and then denies they are ungodly.

Stop lying Van.

Van said:
Folks, go back to page 6 and read posts #53, 54, and 55. NBF addressed his remarks to Muslims, but was expressing his view of all the lost.

Van wants you to think that he knows the thoughts and intents of my heart, which he cannot possibly know, because only God knows those things.

I answered Van's assertion that it was ONLY pride that prevented anyone from coming to Christ, and explained that there were other reasons, equally to be considered, and completely scriptural. But apparently, the fact that anyone who is identified with Reformed Theology would dare to correct him is reason enouigh for him to call them ungodly, call into question their integrity, and claim to know the thoughts and intents of their heart. And Van seemingly cannot see that such an attitude is a sin.

Van said:
NBF, please stop defiling the gospel of Christ. He died for those Muslims, each and every one of them. Christ is the propitiation of the whole world. God desires all men to be saved.

Please cite me the exact words where I said that Christ did not die for any of them. Christ's work on the Cross is more than sufficient to save every one of them, if they believe. Otherwise it avails them nothing. Is this not so?

Why do you lie and tell others publicly that I have written all Muslims off? Where have I ever said such a thing? The answer: Nowhere.

Why do you tell lies against your brother in Christ, for whom Christ died? Why do you express such hatred twoard me personally, that you would say such hurtful, and false things against me publicly, when all I did was add to your stated reasons for why people reject Christ?

Why do you resist apologizing for wrongfully accusing a brother in Christ? Is it pride? Or do you not consider me a brother in Christ?

Is that your contention? If so, you need to expose your true thoughts, and state it plainly so all may know that you presume to act as judge and jury over me.

Van · Apr 7, 2007

NBF continues to poison the discussion and continues to make false charges one after the other.

Read posts #53, 54, and 55, he was addressing Muslims. This is not mind reading, the text is clear. Just read it folks.

Did I say it was only pride that causes people to reject Christ, or did I say pride undergirds every example given in scripture for people rejecting Christ?

NBF, your view has been exposed. Deal with it. I am the one who has been insulted, taunted, ridiculed, belittled, and flamed.

Now NBF says I charged him with writting all Muslims off. But is that what I said? Nope. So more avoidance of his words, more effort to dance away from:

NBF said:
"Certainly pride is one possible reason, but there are bound to be others, such as fear, deception (more prevalent than we'd like to think), and a conscience that is seared, from repeated sin, to the point where there is no reaching them, God having given them over to the evil they desire so strongly."

Folks, just read posts #53, 54, and 55.

nobdysfool · Apr 7, 2007

Van said:
NBF continues to poison the discussion and continues to make false charges one after the other.

Did you, or did you not, accuse me of being ungodly, asnd of promoting ungodliness?

Vans own words:Folks, the only one poisoning the discussion here is NBF, who posts ungodly views and then denies they are ungodly.

Van said:
Read posts #53, 54, and 55, he was addressing Muslims. This is not mind reading, the text is clear. Just read it folks.

I was not referring specifically to Muslims, despite your accusation. You may have been doing so, but do you deny that some people do not believe because of fear, do you deny that some do not believe because of deception, do you deny that some men God has given up to a reprobate mind? The Bible clearly says that this is so, yet you accuse me of ungodliness for pointing that fact out.

Van said:
Did I say it was only pride that causes people to reject Christ, or did I say pride undergirds every example given in scripture for people rejecting Christ?

That is tantmount to saying that pride is the only reason, ultimately. Words mean things, Van. If that is not what you meant, then you need to reword it to more accurately express your intended meaning, rather than attacking someone for pointing out the misunderstanding. Calling someone ungodly, and accusing them of posting ungodliness is a rather harsh reaction.

Van said:
NBF, your view has been exposed. Deal with it. I am the one who has been insulted, taunted, ridiculed, belittled, and flamed.

Exposed for what? You falsely accuse me, claiming to know the thoughts and intents of my heart, which is clearly a lie. Poor Van, he's been so abused, but never mind that he has heaped insult, invective, false accusations, flames, and taunts, ridicule and belittling on me, because I dared to attempt to correct a view with scripture. Van sees that as open season on RT, and me in particular.

Van has accused me falsely, and now he is trying to justify his sin.

Van said:
Now NBF says I charged him with writting all Muslims off. But is that what I said? Nope. So more avoidance of his words, more effort to dance away from:

Van , that was the clear intent of your false accusation. Don't try to lie your way out of it.

Folks, you notice how Van once again avoids my posts when they become too direct? Do you see where he is trying to justify himself for the sin he has committed, not only against me, but against All Reformed believers?

I call on Van before God, and the witnesses here, to repent of his sin, and apologize for falsely accusing me of ungodlinerss in word and deed, and for insulting Reformed believers everywhere by calling Reformed Theology godless, and ungodly.

Ceridwen · Apr 7, 2007

Get over yourselves. Nobody cares.

Van · Apr 8, 2007

Why do people reject Christ?

There are several theories as to why people reject Christ. RT teaches that because they were not part of the preselected elect, they are unable to accept Christ due to the corruption and depravity resulting from the fall of Adam. This theory is a man-centered theory, for if we do not present the gospel effectively, it is not our fault, we do not need to strive to be more like Christ, since they were doomed from all eternity to reject the gospel and nothing we can do will alter that predestined outcome. This theory obsolves us of any responsiblity for failing to diligently serve Christ.

So if we set this theory aside, lets consider if another reason or reasons might exist for people rejecting Christ.

Jesus says, John 5:40, that people do not come to Christ, not because they are unable as RT teaches, but because they are unwilling and hence able. But why would people be unwilling to submit to Christ. One possibility is pride, human pride. Prideful people exalt themselves by building themselves up and tearing others down. So when we see folks rejecting Christ in scripture, do we see them tearing Christ down? Lets look at a few of the rejections recorded in the text.

Matthew 13:53 to 58 records the second visit of Jesus to his hometown, Mark 3:13 records his first visit perhaps a year or two earlier, where they said Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil. But on this visit, at first, since Jesus had become well know as a teacher and a miracleworker, they were astonished. Now this word astonished does not suggest they were amazed, but rather concerned, as indicated by their first question, where did Jesus get this power? If they said, from God, they would have been humbling themselves and building Jesus up. But, since they took the opposite tact, they reveal their pride, their unwillingness (John 5:40) to submit to Jesus.

First, they disparage Him as only a Carpender's son, not a well born, rich or power person. Next they suggest he is just a man, just like them, no different, for His mother is here and his family, just like theirs. Then they ask the rhtorical question, where did Jesus get all these things, implying just like the rest of us, he is no different, no better, not someone we should accept as the Messiah, sent by God. Jesus did not do many miracles because their pride had pretty much shut down their willingness to believe, hence because of their unbelief.

Pride hides in a smokescreen, such as false humility, and changes its name, such as I acted the way I did because of peer pressure - which is just saying my pride required that I do whatever to be accepted in the eyes of men. Take a look at the next rejection, Matthew 14:1-12. Herod wanted to do something but was afraid of what others would think, but then when he was trapped by the scheme of Herodias, in the presence of his birthday party guests, his pride made him willing to kill Christ's messenger, to look good before his peers.

Another disguise used by pride is devotion to self. If we are devoted to ourselves, then we must give that up to be more devoted to Christ. We must be willing to suffer for Christ, and if changing diapers is just too much, what does that say?

If we study the rejections recorded in scripture, we find underlying them all are three reasons for rejection, (1) pride, (2) pride, and (3) pride. Why three? Because pride hides in a smokescreen of rationalization.

A Brother In Christ · Apr 8, 2007

who is RT ? for the hundreth time

Why do people reject Christ?

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