Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

Athée said:

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

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In this world the Holy Spirit is willing to tolerate error in many of His children. Take that as a sign you do not have to have perfect theology in order to be saved. Also take that as a sign your group doesn't have to be perfectly right in order for you to join it.

Please forget my reply. I was getting into that discussion not having read everything about what you were discussing. Thanks.

Athée said:

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Click to expand...

Hello Athee,
Scripture itself indicates that there will be disagreement:
I Corinthians 11:18-19:
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

We see this principle of disagreement between believers, even at times leaders of the church in effect at different points in the Bible. One, probably the best known, incident is the huge disagreement between Paul and Barnabas over whether or not to include John, called Mark, along on their mission to strengthen the churches...this account is found in Acts 15:36-41.
Then we see from the account Paul gives us in Galations 2:11-14 that there is a huge "disagreement" over returning to practice of the O.T. Law. Peter had strayed from the faith and returned to the practices of some Law.

While we are to have unity and peace and deep love for one another and for our God we are at different levels of understanding. Paul indicates in
I Corinthians that this will show who has God's approval (via their greater understanding presumably), but some do not respect this, actually become inflamed with jealousy over the "leader's" wisdom or perhaps that leader's greater approval by God in this situation or fill in the blank. (It happens also in intellectual settings so I assume you can fill in that blank). Some Christians are still living on milk (I Corinthians 3:1-4), not acquainted with the teachings of righteousness...one such teaching would be to fight the flesh (our own sinful nature) as well as understanding humility and submission. We are to go on to maturity (Hebrews 5:11-6:3) but seems this is often over-looked.

Then too we have this Proverb...
Proverbs 27:17...
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Athée said:

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Click to expand...

Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet. If this indwelling business was true, they would have been one. They are not. Conclusion? There's no spirit.

Love-Is-Most-Important said:

Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet. If this indwelling business was true, they would have been one. They are not. Conclusion? There's no spirit.

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Only for the part. John 15 shows that there is a way for a person to be cleansed (by the Word that fixes the spirit) and thereby are "grafted in" to the true vine (the expression used by St. Paul later in Romans 11:24) .. but you see also in John 15:6, that a person may wander again from that way of thinking, into a way of thinking that is not of The Holy Spirit (aka "sin" - pride, envy, wrath etc - look up the 7 Deadly Sins).

1 Timothy 6 has a useful comment to make about the motivations that make Christians depart from The Holy Spirit:

Finding True Riches
If anyone passes on a different teaching and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and with the instruction in keeping with godliness, he is prideful, understanding nothing. Instead he is obsessed with arguments and disputes about words—out of which come envy, strife, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction between people corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, So we cannot take anything out of it. But having food and clothing, with these things we shall be content. But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and a trap and many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

.. when we are to see in 1 Timothy 6:5 that the "riches" spoken of are not merely money in a Christian's view, but if he believes that his duty is to save every unsaved person by making them "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord", then it becomes his ambition to wrestle with a person and force their mind to do just that .. and that therefore is his goal.

His success as a Christian is measured in his mind by the success he has at making converts, or the debates he wins, and that therefore contends with his capacity to give room for growth whenever it comes about that he has to learn a lesson because (much to the dismay of Christians who find themselves in that position, and who cannot bear to be subdued by a more humble person - James 4:6), it is obvious sometimes that sometimes the unbeliever is right and the believer is a hypocrite and a liar.

Gentle Wisdom from Above
Who among you is wise and understanding? By his good conduct let him show his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth.

This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil practice.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in shalom by those who make shalom.
James 3

Love-Is-Most-Important said:

Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet. If this indwelling business was true, they would have been one. They are not. Conclusion? There's no spirit.

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LIMI,

To help me better understand your assessment of Christianity, what 'divisions' do you consider cause you to conclude there is no indwelling spirit/Spirit?

There are all kinds of divisions with motor vehicles. I drive a Mitsubishi, but prior to that I had a Toyota Camry, Ford Falcon, Holden (general motors), Valiant (Chrysler), Pontiac, Chevrolet, Morris Elite, Morris 1000.

Today, I could drive a Subaru, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, Kia, Hyundai, Toyota RAV 4, Jeep, Dodge, Renault, etc.

Because there are so many 'divisions' among motor vehicles does not cause me to believe there are no genuine cars.

I was raised on a sugar cane farm where there were so many varieties (divisions) of sugar cane. That doesn't stop me from believing in raw, brown and white sugar, molasses, syrup and rum. They all come from the many divisions of sugar cane.

Just some thoughts from an Aussie in the sub-tropics of Brisbane. I visited Iceland in 1974 during the summer. What a memorable time that was!

Oz

Love-Is-Most-Important said:

Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet. If this indwelling business was true, they would have been one. They are not. Conclusion? There's no spirit.

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You then are not agnostic as you report. You cannot come to a conclusion that God the Holy Spirit is not real as an agnostic can you?...aren't you then converting to atheism? If so, this is so very sad. You only have this short life in a world polluted with many, many sins and the evils thereof. I hope you will be driven some day among all this ugliness to find true meaning to life by a sincere seeking of your God and Judge and that you shall indeed find Him...as He already knows you and your contempt for Him. Seek Him while He may be found...our days are numbered and they are few compared to an eternity.

Love-Is-Most-Important said:

Christianity is the most divided religion on the planet. If this indwelling business was true, they would have been one. They are not. Conclusion? There's no spirit.

Click to expand...

I wish to add to my previous post to you that it would be against human nature or humanity in general for all to agree lock-step. This might be considered in some respects a rather dead body with only vibrant leaders and would in fact be a very strange phenomenon. We are to aim for unity and we are to live at peace and in unity, however Scripture itself points out that this unity is not as some would view it. We see Paul and Barnabas separating over a sharp dispute and we read in I Corinthians that there must be disagreement to some extent to prove who has the Lord's approval. Also, we are all working out our salvation and must struggle against our sinful nature, the sinful world and Satan.
The Lord says that in the latter days the love of most will grow cold because of the increase in wickedness. We therefore can expect human nature to be rearing its ugly head in this environment...something to gives us all pause and prompt us to pray for unity and wisdom and to forsake the deeds of the flesh.