Why Do Catholics

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

Just because its the same word.........doesnt mean it means the same thing in context...

yet you preach context? lol

Again.........either way you cut eccl 9 (from both sides of the argument).........what your doing is in vain

and moreso, idolatry.....

yet you dont address it.............

You go on and on how its a "fallacy"..............I get this from most people who dont want to answer the tough questions.

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
You go on and on how its a "fallacy"..............I get this from most people who dont want to answer the tough questions.

Ever considered it's because you're using fallacious arguments?

It's fairly simple, if you are unwilling to educate yourself, then I'm done here. I can't do it for you.

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

ever considered that

whatever you dont want to answer you deem in "fallacious"?

I answer all questions............WHy are you so worried about answering a question or not?

So instead of answer you use something like "fallacious" or "straw man" or "non sequitor"

Yet, i answer all questions.....im not afraid.....

why cant you answer the question?

YOu talk about "educating myself..............yet you look toward man to tell you how to study the bible or what to believe

Thats your problem..............man hasnt answered the question im asking, because no one has asked it.....

ill give you time to go find a commentary..........ill wait my friend

Albion · Jun 21, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
Yes, Christ spoke of praying, beseeching His Father. It's the same language the Acts uses to describe the Macedonian praying, beseeching St. Paul.

This is the beseeching, praying, which is meant when talk of "praying to" the Saints who are with God.

In most cases, it is not. You can prove this for yourself if you read some of the actual language used in these prayers to deceased persons who, contrary to what you wrote, may or may not be with God. But that little fact doesn't deter one from venerating and petitioning them, does it?

These prayers usually do much more than merely ask for help--although that is the excuse that is approved for use whenever the issue gets raised. They approach a worship of those persons and attribute great supernatural powers to them.

Needing_Grace · Jun 22, 2012

Azadok2day said:
You can play your little word games but the bible is not ambiguese on this issue , mediator and intercessor basically mean the same thing Christ is the only being that has the ear of God .

Wrong. A mediator is one who acts to bring two parties together. Christ reconciled the world to the Father. An intercessor is someone who carries your request to someone else. We ask Blessed Mary (or any saint) to bring our prayers to Jesus and the Father on our behalf. BTW, that kinda only works if you're already reconciled via the mediator.

In other words, Christ gets us into the family. Mary has a lot of pull with Christ and the Father, being His Mother and all, so we ask her to go with us. The same is true for those who are already in heaven with God. They have a lot of pull with God too. "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avail with much.". How can you get any better than those perfected in heaven.

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Needing_Grace · Jun 22, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
i dont care what wordplay they use.........you cant ask people anything, if "the dead know nothing, they have no further reward"

second of all just because someone has been a "Christian" longer, has no bearing on their Spiritual Growth......

ANd Christ isnt talking literally when he says "God is God of the living".........That doesnt mean they are walkin around in heaven....

All that means is that even though they are dead, they live..............A metaphor meaning, even though they are dead and are know more......they will live....

^Look at that from GOd's perspective, not man

You dont go somewhere to "hangout" before the ress.....

If your in heaven after you die, there is no point for a ress.........and God has rewarded people ahead of other people

Thats called favoritism.

All of us will be rewarded at the same time, on seeing "heaven and earth".........no one gets special privleages.

I'm, you do understand basic math, yes?

Think of the biggest number you can. Never mind, I have one. A googolplex, which a 1 followed be a googol zeroes. What's a googol, you ask? A 1 followed by 100 zeroes. Those are some pretty big numbers. A googolplex is a number so large the if you tried to write it out longhand, you couldn't stuff the paper into the known universe.

The point of that is:

A googolplex is exactly the same distance from infinity as the number one (1).

The same thing applies to time and eternity.

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prodigal brother · Jun 22, 2012

because they're told its not worship, its merely an action renamed veneerating, Its much like how Jesus taught not to kill and to love your enemies, they simply rename the action like "Inquisition" and now it free's them up to torture and kill as many enemies of the faith (their faith) as they can get their hands on. Historically they like to rename all sorts of stuff, they're sect should be called the "renamers"

Needing_Grace · Jun 22, 2012

prodigal brother said:
because they're told its not worship, its merely an action renamed veneerating, Its much like how Jesus taught not to kill and to love your enemies, they simply rename the action like "Inquisition" and now it free's them up to torture and kill as many enemies of the faith (their faith) as they can get their hands on. Historically they like to rename all sorts of stuff, they're sect should be called the "renamers"

Your tirade about the inquisition notwithstanding (considering the Inquisition only had authority over professing Catholics...), you don't think Catholics understand the relationship between God and the saints when we ask them to pray with and for us? Then again, we're supposed to see the Kingdom of God as a relationship between God AND His people. Not everyone does and therein lies the confusion.

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Albion · Jun 22, 2012

Needing_Grace said:
Your tirade about the inquisition notwithstanding (considering the Inquisition only had authority over professing Catholics...), you don't think Catholics understand the relationship between God and the saints when we ask them to pray with and for us? Then again, we're supposed to see the Kingdom of God as a relationship between God AND His people. Not everyone does and therein lies the confusion.

It not a question of not seeing the relationship between God and his people; it's a matter of the relationship between his people and other of his people.

We are not to treat other humans, alive or dead, even if believers, as if they were endowed with powers or authority belonging only to God.

Needing_Grace · Jun 22, 2012

Albion said:
It not a question of not seeing the relationship between God and his people; it's a matter of the relationship between his people and other of his people.

We are not to treat other humans, alive or dead, even if believers, as if they were endowed with powers or authority belonging only to God.

Which we don't do. When I say a Hail Mary, I am simply asking for her to pray with and for me. Mary ALWAYS points to her Son saying, "whatever He says, do it" and provides the perfect example of Christian humility when she said, "be it done unto me according to thy word."

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Needing_Grace · Jun 22, 2012

Albion said:
It not a question of not seeing the relationship between God and his people; it's a matter of the relationship between his people and other of his people.

We are not to treat other humans, alive or dead, even if believers, as if they were endowed with powers or authority belonging only to God.

No Catholic does so. We ask those already perfect in heaven to pray with and for us. The Blessed Virgin a human person who was greatly blessed by God because of her special relationship to God the Son, being His mother and all. It's not about her, she ALWAYS points us to Jesus saying, "whatever He says, do it.".

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Albion · Jun 22, 2012

Needing_Grace said:
No Catholic does so.

OK, now you've given the required disclaimer. However, it still is an open question whether or not the veneration, devotion, etc. that is directed to the dead crosses the line. Merely denying that it does so doesn't change anything.

We ask those already perfect in heaven to pray with and for us.

and more. Again, that's what you are supposed to say. However, the prayers say much more, not to mention the postures, other acts of veneration, etc, And for most of these "saints" there's no way of knowing if they are in heaven or not.

Needing_Grace · Jun 22, 2012

Albion said:
OK, now you've given the required disclaimer.

It's not just a disclaimer, it's a fact

However, it still is an open question whether or not the veneration, devotion, etc. that is directed to the dead crosses the line. Merely denying that it does so doesn't change anything.

We're not talking about the dead.

and more. Again, that's what you are supposed to say. However, the prayers say much more, not to mention the postures, other acts of veneration, etc, And for most of these "saints" there's no way of knowing if they are in heaven or not.

Bear in mind that much of our modern practice, especially in the Latin Rite, comes to us from from medieval Italian piety. There was a lot more bowing and scraping without the intent to worship (latria) rather to show respect (dulia) than we would expect today. The theology and intent of the heart are what count, not the outward appearance.

Jesus said something about judging based on outward appearance. You want to know what we're doing, just ask.

Albion · Jun 24, 2012

I see that there are a few posts piled up here for me. Sorry that I almost missed them.

Needing_Grace said:
Which we don't do.

That's an open question. The reason that people here question the propriety of some of these devotions is that they appear to go beyond what is claimed for them--such as with your denial here.

When I say a Hail Mary, I am simply asking for her to pray with and for me.

Perhaps, but there are a thousand prayers that are in the category we are discussing, not just the Hail Mary, and many of them very definitely do attribute to that saint powers and authority that goes well beyond "asking" for a prayer on our behalf.

Albion · Jun 24, 2012

Needing_Grace said:
No Catholic does so.

Sorry but you are wrong about that. I have witnessed it many times myself and so have plenty of other reformed Christians who question the practice.

We ask those already perfect in heaven to pray with and for us.

That's the disclaimer, all right. However the facts are otherwise and if all you are prepared to do is give the standard "kiss off" response and a big denial, nothing more can be resolved, I'm thinking.

Albion · Jun 24, 2012

Needing_Grace said:
Bear in mind that much of our modern practice, especially in the Latin Rite, comes to us from from medieval Italian piety. There was a lot more bowing and scraping without the intent to worship (latria) rather to show respect (dulia) than we would expect today. The theology and intent of the heart are what count, not the outward appearance.

What is in the heart does count, yes, but the outward appearance VERY MUCH ALSO COUNTS. Read the First Commandment, for starters, and notice that nowhere is the ACTION in question excused so long as what's in your heart is well-intentioned or sincere, etc.

SadieInTheSand · Jun 26, 2012

RomanRite said:
First of all, the Saints are not dead because Jesus is not the God of the dead but the living. Rev 5:8 The elders pray for the Saints on the earth and offer these prayers to God.

Hail Mary Full of Grace Luke 1:28

I guess angel Gabrial was worshiping Mary too huh?

LOL Brilliant!

SadieInTheSand · Jun 26, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
"And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." - Acts 16:9 (KJV)

-CryptoLutheran

LOL gotta love this forum. One man is quoting scripture (hats off to you, CryptoLutheran, you gave it your best)

and the OP is quoting webster's dictionary.

Albion · Jun 26, 2012

SadieInTheSand said:
LOL Brilliant!

RomanRite said:
First of all, the Saints are not dead because Jesus is not the God of the dead but the living. Rev 5:8 The elders pray for the Saints on the earth and offer these prayers to God.

Hail Mary Full of Grace Luke 1:28

I guess angel Gabrial (sic) was worshiping Mary too huh?

I'd like to agree with you, Sadie, except that we were trying to have a serious discussion here. And every one of the three above points is absolutely wrong.

First, we all know the difference between being dead and alive. When physical life ends on Earth and we pass into the afterlife, we all call that death. Acting as though we all don't know the difference, and that we all don't use the same wording in the same way, is not helpful to anyone.

Second, the Elders pray for the Saints on Earth. Yes, except that the issue here was whether WE should pray TO THEM, not whether they pray FOR US. Two entirely different matters.

and Third, the Angel Gabriel's words did not include the second half of the "Hail Mary' prayer--"Holy Mary, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." That part was added by the Pope only a few generations ago.

And look, the angel seems to know that when we stop living on Earth, it's "death." Hmmmm.

Plus, that addition to the words of the angel certainly is not a mere declaration that God favored her (which is what Gabriel said to Mary) but are an act of devotion TO Mary.

It would have been really clever if any of the snappy retort above had been factually correct.

.

WisdomTree · Jun 26, 2012

First of all; hi, I'm Hansol and it is nice to meet you all.

Second of all, you lot need to learn to argue better or learn to argue.

Now, I'm not going to rant about stuff or try and explain what ought to be done or contribute any material to the topic at hand, but I will say this: Protestants, you need to drop most of your prejudice against the Catholics and try and understand their point of view; Catholics, you need to actually explain what you're doing instead of dodging questions and let the Protestants understand in their own way by using analogies; and finally to the Orthodox, where the hell are guys!?

Though there were some good arguments back and forth, most of this has been a complete rubbish, especially by the fellow who keeps saying the same thing and not listen to what the other side says. It's as if s/he is just clicking "quote" without even reading or is determined to "argue" it out without making an arguement!

Let's not let a good opportunity of mutual understand go to waste guys.

Why Do Catholics

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"......And the soul wears out the breast....."

"......And the soul wears out the breast....."

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