Why Do Catholics

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

I love it when people, ignorant of Catholic or ancient Christian teaching/practice attempt to wax theological.

"Why do you worship angels?" is like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
I love it when people, ignorant of Catholic or ancient Christian teaching/practice attempt to wax theological.

"Why do you worship angels?" is like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

-CryptoLutheran

lol

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
lol

I'm glad that you agree that the opening post in this thread is laughable.

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

it is funny

but its an actual question....

maybe i shouldnt have said angels.......but dead saints.......

WHy do you worship/pray to dead saints.

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
it is funny

but its an actual question....

maybe i shouldnt have said angels.......but dead saints.......

WHy do you worship/pray to dead saints.

I don't. I don't ask the Saints to pray for me, it's not part of my devotional life. Though I accept that in the Communion of Saints, that those with the Lord whilst asleep in the body, and those of us here upon the earth are united in Christ as one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the Spirit who dwells in us, by our common Baptism in Christ, and as such we are called to pray for one another as Christians. As such, I accept that those present with the Lord whilst asleep in the body pray for their brothers and sisters here on earth, and no less love and care for us than they did when they walked among us in the body.

Why shouldn't the Blessed Virgin pray for us? Why shouldn't the rest of the Saints pray for us? Did the Apostle Paul stop being a Christian after he was beheaded? Did my mother stop praying for me after she died from cancer?

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

yes (except that someone doesnt "stop" being a Christian, in the case of paul)

The dead know nothing, they have no further reward.

Zoe of Elyon · Jun 20, 2012

I can't believe the following hasn't been clearly spelled out somewhere in the last five pages, only obliquely hinted at. According to my understanding, Catholics use the word "pray" in the archaic sense meaning "beseech" or "intercede," or in simple terms, "ask." In other words, the "prayers" to the saints are when you ask a saint to pray for you. If you've ever asked a friend or parent or teacher or elder to pray for you, it's the same concept. The idea is that people who are already in heaven are, well, further along spiritually than people who are still on earth, just like people we know who have been Christians longer than us are also further along spiritually.

If you recall the part in the gospels where the Sadducees (who didn't believe in the resurrection) asked Jesus about the woman who married 7 husbands and whose wife would she be in the resurrection, Jesus responds with a curious statement: "'I am the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead but of the living." The implication of this quote is that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive - a clever way to prove the Sadducees wrong about the resurrection, no?

Personally, I don't practice this, but I think that other Protestants should learn what it actually is before deciding to condemn it.

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

Zoe of Elyon said:
Oh sheesh. Five pages of a thread and no actual information has been dispensed by anybody.

IOWLBNIF, according to my understanding, Catholics use the word "pray" in the archaic sense meaning "beseech" or "intercede," or in simple terms, "ask." In other words, the "prayers" to the saints are when you ask a saint to pray for you. If you've ever asked a friend or parent or teacher or elder to pray for you, it's the same concept. The idea is that people who are already in heaven are, well, further along spiritually than people who are still on earth, just like people we know who have been Christians longer than us are also further along spiritually.

If you recall the part in the gospels where the Sadducees (who didn't believe in the resurrection) asked Jesus about the woman who married 7 husbands and whose wife would she be in the resurrection, Jesus responds with a curious statement: "'I am the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead but of the living." The implication of this quote is that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive - a clever way to prove the Sadducees wrong about the resurrection, no?

Personally, I don't practice this, but I think that other Protestants should learn what it actually is before deciding to condemn it.

i dont care what wordplay they use.........you cant ask people anything, if "the dead know nothing, they have no further reward"

second of all just because someone has been a "Christian" longer, has no bearing on their Spiritual Growth......

ANd Christ isnt talking literally when he says "God is God of the living".........That doesnt mean they are walkin around in heaven....

All that means is that even though they are dead, they live..............A metaphor meaning, even though they are dead and are know more......they will live....

^Look at that from GOd's perspective, not man

You dont go somewhere to "hangout" before the ress.....

If your in heaven after you die, there is no point for a ress.........and God has rewarded people ahead of other people

Thats called favoritism.

All of us will be rewarded at the same time, on seeing "heaven and earth".........no one gets special privleages.

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

Zoe of Elyon said:
I can't believe the following hasn't been clearly spelled out somewhere in the last five pages, only obliquely hinted at. According to my understanding, Catholics use the word "pray" in the archaic sense meaning "beseech" or "intercede," or in simple terms, "ask." In other words, the "prayers" to the saints are when you ask a saint to pray for you. If you've ever asked a friend or parent or teacher or elder to pray for you, it's the same concept. The idea is that people who are already in heaven are, well, further along spiritually than people who are still on earth, just like people we know who have been Christians longer than us are also further along spiritually.

If you recall the part in the gospels where the Sadducees (who didn't believe in the resurrection) asked Jesus about the woman who married 7 husbands and whose wife would she be in the resurrection, Jesus responds with a curious statement: "'I am the father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.' He is not the God of the dead but of the living." The implication of this quote is that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive - a clever way to prove the Sadducees wrong about the resurrection, no?

Personally, I don't practice this, but I think that other Protestants should learn what it actually is before deciding to condemn it.

This is correct. Whenever I ask a friend to pray for me, I am technically "praying" to them. This is how this sense has been used historically, and indeed Acts 16:9 says that in Paul's vision the Macedonian man prayed to him (Paul), the Greek uses the same word that is used in other places as asking/praying to God.

Even the term "worship" has been misunderstood. The "worship" traditionally given to the Saints (including the Virgin Mary) is better understood as veneration or reverence. It is markedly different than the worship which belongs only to God, which is adoration.

I venerate Holy Scripture, but I do not adore Holy Scripture, that would be idolatry (idol+latria, image/object adoration), but I venerate the Scriptures as God's written word.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
yes (except that someone doesnt "stop" being a Christian, in the case of paul)

The dead know nothing, they have no further reward.

That is your private pet doctrine.

The conscience of the Christian Church is held captive by the Word of God, not the word of IOWLBNIF.

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

plain and simple...

the masses are wrong my friend.......

IDC what the mainstream Church "holds captive"

you sound like my friend grady right now

"if a lot of people believe it, it must be true"

Let me ask you, did the evil one deceive people in heaven or out of heaven?

yet you trust "mass" churches to lead the way?

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

asking and praying are completely different.....

you dont show reverence to man, but to God

you got it misunderstood on both accounts friend...

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
asking and praying are completely different.....

you dont show reverence to man, but to God

you got it misunderstood on both accounts friend...

Words actually have meaning. Get over it.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
plain and simple...

the masses are wrong my friend.......

IDC what the mainstream Church "holds captive"

you sound like my friend grady right now

"if a lot of people believe it, it must be true"

Let me ask you, did the evil one deceive people in heaven or out of heaven?

yet you trust "mass" churches to lead the way?

if i talk like this

and like this

will i also

be more spiritual than thee?

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
Words actually have meaning. Get over it.

-CryptoLutheran

prayer/pre(&#601r/
Noun:
A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
A religious service, esp. a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together.

rev·er·ence/ˈrev(&#601rəns/
Noun:
Deep respect for.
Verb:
Regard or treat with deep respect.

I can respect someone, without revering them........

So yes, words do have meanings.............Asking is different than praying...... Reverence is different than respect...

ViaCrucis said:
if i talk like this

and like this

will i also

be more spiritual than thee?

-CryptoLutheran

lol onto personal attacks now my friend?

i forgive "thee" lol........

Relax my friend

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
prayer/pre(&#601r/
Noun:
A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
A religious service, esp. a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together.

rev·er·ence/ˈrev(&#601rəns/
Noun:
Deep respect for.
Verb:
Regard or treat with deep respect.

I can respect someone, without revering them........

So yes, words do have meanings.............Asking is different than praying...... Reverence is different than respect...

lol onto personal attacks now my friend?

i forgive "thee" lol........

Relax my friend

"And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." - Acts 16:9 (KJV)

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

parakalevw/Parakaleo/par-ak-al-eh'-o

to call to one's side, call for, summon
to address, speak to, (call to, call upon), which may be done in the way of exhortation, entreaty, comfort, instruction, etc.
to admonish, exhort
to beg, entreat, beseech
to strive to appease by entreaty
to console, to encourage and strengthen by consolation, to comfort
to receive consolation, be comforted
to encourage, strengthen
exhorting and comforting and encouraging
to instruct, teach

so back to my question, that no one has answered.

If the dead know nothing or they are truly dead (im using both arguments to make a point)

Then why do you do things in vain?

^explain please

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
parakalevw/Parakaleo/par-ak-al-eh'-o

to call to one's side, call for, summon
to address, speak to, (call to, call upon), which may be done in the way of exhortation, entreaty, comfort, instruction, etc.
to admonish, exhort
to beg, entreat, beseech
to strive to appease by entreaty
to console, to encourage and strengthen by consolation, to comfort
to receive consolation, be comforted
to encourage, strengthen
exhorting and comforting and encouraging
to instruct, teach

so back to my question, that no one has answered.

If the dead know nothing or they are truly dead (im using both arguments to make a point)

Then why do you do things in vain?

^explain please

ἢ δοκεῖς ὅτι οὐ δύναμαι ἄρτι παρακαλέσαι τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ παραστήσει μοι πλείους ἢ δώδεκα λεγεῶνας ἀγγέλων - Matthew 26:53

You keep using the same verse from Ecclesiastes, a book concerned with the seeming pointlessness of life as though it somehow trumps the entire breadth of Scripture on the issue.

The Preacher, in Ecclesiastes, also says,

"Meaningless! Meaningless! says the Preacher.
Meaningless! Meaningless! All is meaningless!"

Context. Context. Context.

-CryptoLutheran

IOWLBNIF · Jun 20, 2012

I give both points for a reason.......lol

yet you dont address what im asking......

you talk about context........but Christ is praying to God.........

Your talking or "praying" to dead saints...........

Take your own advice on your Context speech.........I keep things in context.....

Whats funny is, that "meaningless meaningless" isnt even in the same chapter im quoting from lol

So lets answer the question my friend............WHy do you do things in vain?

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2012

IOWLBNIF said:
I give both points for a reason.......lol

yet you dont address what im asking......

you talk about context........but Christ is praying to God.........

Your talking or "praying" to dead saints...........

Take your own advice on your Context speech.........I keep things in context.....

Whats funny is, that "meaningless meaningless" isnt even in the same chapter im quoting from lol

So lets answer the question my friend............WHy do you do things in vain?

Yes, Christ spoke of praying, beseeching His Father. It's the same language the Acts uses to describe the Macedonian praying, beseeching St. Paul.

This is the beseeching, praying, which is meant when talk of "praying to" the Saints who are with God.

Your argument has consistently sought to undermine the basics of language by imposing your own definitions in order to make your fallacious arguments come out right. You confound these with an inappropriate exegesis of the book of Ecclesiastes in order to substitute your private theology with the ancient, historic, orthodox, and biblical theology of the entire Christian Church. Apparently because you believe you have seemingly magically have it all figured out, and that the Christian Church has never gotten it right.

-CryptoLutheran

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