Why did Jesus have to die?

Boomygrrl · Sep 2, 2004

Hello all,
This is my first post, so I'm not sure if this is the right forum. First of all, let me tell you I'm agnostic.
I keep hearing that Jesus had to die for our sins. I know it is very fundamental in the Christian faith. My question is "why?"
If God is all-loving, can't He just forgive if you are truly repentant? I know God is thought of to be both merciful and just. Where's the justice in Jesus dying for my sins? That was a horrible death he had to die (I've read the gospels and saw "The Passion of the Christ"). Why the physical sacrifice? Why can't we just ask for forgiveness, learn from our mistakes, make amends, and be forgiven?
Maybe there really isn't an answer, and we have to rely on faith. But, as of now, I have no faith. I'm one of those rational, logical, quiet types that likes to absorb information, get all the facts if possible, and then make a decision. It's served me well in life.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Boomygrrl

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Sep 2, 2004

On my website, http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/believe.htm , I posted the following:

I hope it helps.

I read on many sites that we are saved by 'accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Saviour'. This is generally linked to a simple theology - "man is sinful, he cannot please God, he deserves punishment for his sins, Jesus takes that punishment, so if we accept Him then we are forgiven". Well, I'm not going to say that's wrong, in the same way as it's not wrong to say the Lord of the Rings is "Hobbit finds evil artefact, goes on perilous journey, destroys artefact, world is saved."

Needless to say, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. And in the same way that it's also true to say that the Lord of the Rings is "descendant of ancient kings wants to marry elvish princess, has to become King of Gondor and Arnor, fights war, evil overlord is destroyed, becomes King and marries princess". Salvation is bigger than usually painted, and from a different angle might look very different from how it is usually portrayed.

Personally, I find that for me the above model (known as Substitutionary Atonement) asks as many questions as it answers. This is a model I find more helpful:

Christianity has always held, from the earliest days, that Jesus was both fully God and fully Human. He was not God prancing around in a man-suit pretending to be human, but rather He ate, drank, slept, cried, rejoiced, farted and so forth. Nor was He just an extra special man with a few magic tricks and a hotline to heaven, but He really was God with man. Now, this is something of a tension, even a paradox, especially when ideas such as omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are considered primary attributes of God, as clearly Jesus was none of these - if He had been, He could hardly have been human. No, He was God who had taken on the limitations of being human. There's lots of learned material on the incarnation, as this concept is known, and it's worth looking up.

I believe that Jesus' very person embodies reconciliation of God with man, inasmuch as Jesus is both. However, in order to fully reconcile all that being human entails, this God-man needs to suffer, at least in part, all the **** things that happen to people. Injustice, innocent suffering, persecution, intolerance, and so on. Therefore, only by Jesus' death in the manner in which it occurred is the reconciliation between God and man fully made.

There is a story told, entitled The Long Silence. In this, the scene is judgement day. And many people are unhappy that God is going to stand in judgement over them, for various reasons. They point out the injustices they have suffered, the pain they have experienced, and so on, whilst God, up in heaven, has not had to go through all this. Who the hell is He to pass judgement on them?

They get together and create a series of demands that God must go through before He can have any right to criticise, let alone judge, them. He must be born to a people dominated by an oppressive occupying force. His birth is to be shrouded in shame and scandal. He must be forced to go into hiding for his life whilst still a child. He must be betrayed by his closest friends, slandered and unjustly condemned. Then He must be tortured, and executed in a shameful and agonising manner. Then there is silence as it is realised that God has already served this sentence.

Now, whilst this story is told in the context of judgement, which I think is a shame, it illustrates the full meaning of the incarnation. This incarnational theology carries on beyond the Resurrection and onto the Ascension. The Ascension receives precious little attention from many apologists, and I think that this is a great shame. Jesus ascension as still Man and God takes humanity permanently into God. We have a stake in Gods nature. The upshot of all this is that everything it means to be human is to be found within God, and everything it means to be God has been found within a Man. Thus is our reconciliation with God made possible. What this means can only be worked out by the individuals own walk in faith.

aggieman56 · Sep 2, 2004

Hey Boomygrrl,

In alot of ways, I'm also a logical person. I'm gonna do my best to answer your questions. Before Jesus, God required living sacrifices (first born calfs/sheep) as atonements. The prophecies also spoke of one who would come and die for all our sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. John 15:13 - Greater LOVE has no one but this, that he lay down his life for his friends. The biggest reason for his death is what happened three days later. He arose!!! Conquering the grave and satan in one swift action. Just like when He crushed the serpent in the Passion of the Christ. Without the resurrection, we have no justification for our faith. Jesus had to die, to be resurrected, to give us the hope that one day He's coming back for us. Or in math terms (hehe):

Cross + Resurrection = Everlasting Life!!!

I hope this helps you, any more questions, just post them and I'll try to help you some more.

Boomygrrl · Sep 2, 2004

I know in the Old Testament God required living sacrifices as atonements. "Why?" would be my response to that, as well. I'm just not sure why God (as Jesus) had to die for us to save us. I'm not so sure I agree with "greater love has no one but this, that he lay down his life for his friends." That's almost "gang mentality" to me. I remember working with adolescents who said they would suffer along with their buddies, and that was somehow proof of friendship. My response was why go down with them, when you can lift them up? Rather than get in trouble to gether, why not help each other to aspire to be the best you can? A true friend would encourage positive things in others' lives. Now, I understand, that if there was a murderer and he said "either you or your mother had to die." Yes, I would give my life up for my mother. Usually scenarios like that don't happen. Likely, both of us would die anyways.
Back to the case for Jesus' suffering. Why did he have to suffer to appease God? Why couldn't God just forgive? Especially forgive those who are truly repentant and change their lives around.
Jesus dying to appease God creeps me out. There must be something I'm missing here.

Thanks,
Boomygrrl

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Sep 2, 2004

God could. This is the problem with reducing atonement to forgiveness. It's much more than that. It's a radical healing of the breach between man and God.

In the early Genesis stories (which I don't take literally), the model there is given of man being in direct contact with God - God is pictured walking in the garden of Eden and able to talk to mankind. But right there, at the beginning, this relationship is broken, and mankind is expelled from the Garden where this sort of relationship and communion with God is possible.

I'm suggesting that Jesus' death cannot be seen in isolation; it is the culmination of His Incarnation - His bringing together of God and Man into one single person. The Bible talks about how when two people are married they are joined together as one, and it likens that to what happens between God and His people. His people are also described as the Body of Christ - and Christ's Body is one in which Man and God are inextricably entwined.

But to be that fully human person in which this inextricable entwinement is manifested, Christ has to go through the full experience of being human - including death. If Christ did not die, He was not truly human. If He was not truly human, then what He unites with divinity in His very nature is not true humanity.

eutychus · Sep 2, 2004

Boomygrrl said:
If God is all-loving, can't He just forgive if you are truly repentant?

Firstly, excellent question. I've also asked before how an all-powerful God who can do what he wants would give salvation through the spilling of blood. As you've said, it doesn't really make sense. The fact is, that if God had wanted to just say "Forgiven" to the truly repentant, then he would have, and he most-definitely could have. Maybe God knew that we would not be able to have "true repentance" if Jesus hadn't done what he did on the cross.

Romans 5:8-10, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shalll be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

The Bible says that because Jesus' blood was spilled, because that's the crazy way God wanted it to happen, we are justified from our sin, and we no longer have God's wrath hanging over our heads. This was the truest extension of love--we were God's enemies when Christ died, yet He died anyway. However, we are saved not because he remained dead, but because God raised Jesus from the dead.

I know God is thought of to be both merciful and just. Where's the justice in Jesus dying for my sins? Why the physical sacrifice?

There is no justice in Jesus dying for your sins. If God were to truly demonstrate his justice, he would just forget our existence since he is holy, and we are sinners who don't come close to be as good as God.

1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, havin been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit." The physical sacrifice Jesus made was because we wouldn't be able to draw near to God otherwise. The above verse says that Jesus died to "bring us to God."

Why can't we just ask for forgiveness, learn from our mistakes, make amends, and be forgiven?

Not that I know much, but logically, since Romans 3:23 says that we are sinners who fall short of the glory of God, we technically wouldn't be able to make amends ourselves.

One time Jesus was talking with a man who was asking about how a person can be near to God, and Jesus explained that the said person had to be "born again" (a term you might have heard in Christianese). Anywho, the man was confused as to how a person could be born again from his mother, and Jesus explained that a person needs to be born of the Spirit. Jesus explained in John 3:8, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Because of the way God worked things out, the Spirit was released after the death and resurrection of Jesus, and He [also God] is who brings people to salvation.

I hope that didn't sound too confusing, and I know that still doesn't answer the original question as to why God chose this vehicle of salvation, but I hope it helps a little. If I sound confusing, tell me and I'll clear it up.

Cheers,
Cass

Boomygrrl · Sep 2, 2004

God has extremely high expectations on us, it seems. The Genesis story justifies, for many, the belief that we should die because we are sinners. I can honestly say I am not perfect and that I have done plenty of bad things in my life. I can't see how we can be considered God's enemies because we are not perfect. I, for one, have become a stronger person (mentally, morally) because I have learned from my mistakes. I've grown, if you will. I could not imagine thinking someone deserved hell or "the wrath of God" (which makes me want to question why God is so wrathful) just because they are morally developing and are learning how to be better people, and will slip sometimes. That's why I ask that if you are truly repentant and are really wanting to grow from it and change your ways, why isn't that good enough? Why can't one have a personal relationship with God through prayer and through taking care of his creation (nature, other people)? That sounds more personal and spiritual to me.

Thanks in advance,
Boomygrrl

aggieman56 · Sep 2, 2004

The Bible is God's Word, which means that everything in there is 100% true (Even those old Genisis stories). As for your "gang mentality", Jesus didn't want to suffer with us, he wanted to suffer FOR us. With his sacrifice, we are saved from hell. Jesus died so we won't go to hell. "For we were dead in our tresspasses". Nobody (but Jesus) has ever lived a perfect life, we have all even broken all 10 commandemts, (yes even the murder one Matt. 5:21-26). Our Good works are not going to get us to Heaven. Only faith in Jesus Christ. In a logical world I don't know how one man dying 2000 years ago will save a countless multitude from eternal damnation, but it does!!! There are many things I don't have answers too, but I view that as a good thing. God's ways are higher than our ways, and I wouldn't want a God whose wisdom was the same as man's. Please remember, Jesus had to die, so he could OFFER HIMSELF as a ransom for us. The key to the christian faith, is not in Christ dying, but Christ's resurrection!!!

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Sep 2, 2004

Boomygrril - have you been reading my posts?

It's quite possible that God will forgive anyone who is repentant. But as I said, salvation is more than just forgiveness and a "get out of Hell free" card. It is reuniting the divine with the human, which requires both Jesus' life and His death.

I do think that Jesus died both with us and for us. With us, in identifying His nature with our humanity, and for us in terms of the reconciliation with God it made possible.

And of course the old genesis stories are true. How would I possibly try to draw lessons from them otherwise. They're just not, in my mind, historically factual. Let's not go into that here; I'm merely anxious that no "you must believe Genesis 1 literally" stumbling blocks are placed in Boomygrril's way.

Boomygrrl · Sep 2, 2004

Karl,
I've read your posts and I find yours more helpful because it doesn't say "the bible says it, so it's so." For one who is agnostic, I need more of a rational discussion than that for my sake. No one here needs to defend their faith, so I don't want it to be about that. But for me, who isn't even sure if the bible is 100 percent accurate, I need a little more than that. So, I appreciate you spending time trying to explain this to me.
Bringing the divine and man together is interesting. You're the first to point that out to me. I appreciate that point of view. That is why I asked why can't prayer and treating God's creation well be considered a way to spiritually connect us to God? Maybe there is no answer to this, as I know many will say "just because." Again, that's fine if you believe it. I just need something, I guess, a little more rational or logical. So, thanks for bearing with me, Karl. Believe me when I say I appreciate it. I hope you don't feel that I was ignoring your posts. In fact, yours is the one I have paid closest attention to.

You mentioned in an earlier post, which I also found interesting (although I confess I don't follow it), the one about God judging us when we die. Since God lived a human life through Jesus, your assertion goes, then He, in fact, can rightfully judge us. That has never been explained to me, and I appreciate the time you took to post that. I have to say, I don't follow it. Maybe it's because I'm agnostic and I'm not a believer, so bear with me. However, not following it (believing it) and appreciating it are two different things, and I appreciate it (but not follow it). If that makes sense.
Hope my post makes sense, so you can see where my difficulties may be.

Thanks again,
Boomygrrl

WashedClean · Sep 2, 2004

Hi Boomygrrl,

You ask excellent questions, and everyone here is doing a great job of trying to answer you. One thing in your post jumped out at me:

I'm not so sure I agree with "greater love has no one but this, that he lay down his life for his friends." That's almost "gang mentality" to me. I remember working with adolescents who said they would suffer along with their buddies, and that was somehow proof of friendship.

Eutychus did an excellent job of addressing this, but I just wanted to add something. It's one thing for a man to lay down his life for his friend. But we were/are born as enemies to God. I know that sounds harsh, but we are spiritually "dead in our sins" and the natural man is hostile toward God:

"The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. " Romans 8:6-8

I don't know why God chose this way for salvation of man, but He did and it was determined before God even created man. Jesus was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. One reason I think God chose this path is because it glorifies Him. If we could earn our way to heaven, we would all be up there bragging about what we did to deserve it. No, God will not share His glory nor should He. The only way for us to understand the gravity of our sin is to understand the cross. If you think God doesn't take it seriously, look at what He did to reconcile sinful man to Himself. You said that God has high standards for us. That's the whole point. God demands perfection and he knows we cannot achieve it. So Jesus paid our sin debt for us. I think that is the ultimate love story.

I know Jesus suffered physically on the cross, but the spiritual pain He endured was far worse. God turned His back on His Son when he poured out all His wrath for us on Him. That's when Jesus cried "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?". God cannot be in the presence of sin, so at that moment in time He had to separate Himself from Jesus. Something that had never ocurred before.

Well, I'm rambling now, so I'll sign off. I hope I haven't bored you too much.

God bless you and I pray that you will continue to seek the Truth found only in Jesus Christ.

WashedClean

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Sep 2, 2004

Boomygrrl - the thing about judgement is from an old story. As I say on my website, I think it's a shame that it's largely put in terms of judgement.

I only used it to show how God has, rather than been aloof, rather been through everything (or at least a representative sample - only one life!) that makes the human condition what it is. The original story says that gives Him the right to judge us; my position, rather, is that it gives Him complete insight into what it is to be human, and, indeed, rather than being purely a distant figure, He has made Himself a victim of all the evil in the world.

In other words, He understands. He can totally empathise and walk with us because He's been there.

Don't think too much about judgement; more important is this concept of reconciliation.

Boomygrrl · Sep 2, 2004

Why did God create us, knowing we will fail, and then be hostile to us? It seems so petty for God to think of us as enemies in need of punishment. No offense. I'm not calling God petty. I'm calling this view point, from my perspective, petty. I want to make clear that I'm not here to insult anyone for their beliefs or to insult God.
It just doesn't seem to follow, that's all. And that's why I'm agnostic. I'm like one of those two year olds that say "why, why, why?" I know it can be annoying, and I appreciate everyone who is trying to answer my questions. I just have a hard time believing the Christian doctrine. Perhaps rational discussion will help me.
Karl, again, thanks for your patience.
I know we cannot know the mind of God, and a lot of what we assert is based on faith. So answers like "I don't know why, it's just the way God wanted it to be" I know are genuinely honest from you, WashedClean. For that, thanks.
I'll be honest--I am not even clear to this point if there is a God or not. I was raised in a family in which it was a given that God exists. However, assuming that God exists, it seems that an all-knowing, all-loving, all-everything kind of God would want to reach out to everyone, not just people who believe a certain creed. That's why I have a hard time grasping Christianity or any exclusive religion for that matter. It's just me, again you don't have to defend why you believe what you do. I just want to understand this better. Prayer, living a good decent life, treating others with kindness and respect, treating the environment right, learning from your mistakes, making amends, having a caring heart all seem very spiritual and loving to me. I agree that if you are doing these things to get to heaven, then yeah many people are going to boast about how well they did. I'm not even concerned about the heaven and hell issue, as much as with a spiritual connection to God. If these things are done out of love, how can this not be spiritual? I don't understand why God had to sacrifice anything of himself in order to love us and want us near and dear to Him. Why the blood shed? I don't shed my blood to forgive others who have done me wrong. I see if they are genuine, if they are making steps to correct the situation, and then I say "hey, we're human and we make mistakes. I can tell you really are repentant, and yes I forgive you." God not being able to be in contact with sin doesn't make sense either. Sin isn't cryptonite (excuse the misspelling) that will make God weak. Sin isn't the water that melts away the witch on the wizard of Oz. Okay, enough of my rambling. I hope you can understand what my struggles are. Maybe I'm not looking at something correctly. Maybe it just takes faith. Help me on this one.

Boomygrrl

DawnTillery · Sep 2, 2004

I "THINK" that one of the reasons Jesus was sent here was to "Remind" us of our Heavenly Father, to show his power of healing and his message, he wasn't sent her for the righteous, he was sent here for those in sin to help pave the way for us. Our heavenly father loves us so much that he gave his ONLY Son for us. Through that we owe him a debt that can not be repaid except to believe and live the life that was meant for us to live and that will lead us back home to him.
Ok so lets say there never was a Jesus.. we would be believing something along the lines go do what you want, you owe me nothing, repent when you feel like it, I will accept that and you keep living your sinful life. That is not acceptable, we are sinners but we must turn away from that sin and live a life of thankfulness to our Heavenly Father. I look at it as though, yes Jesus death was terrible, but he knew what was going to happen, he says it many times in the Gospel and he did it because he wanted us to be able to have that path to our Heavenly Father.
Jesus took all our sins and died for us, for that I can never imagain NOT believing in something he did for me and for you.

Athanasian Creed · Sep 2, 2004

Boomygrrl said:
Why did God create us, knowing we will fail, and then be hostile to us? It seems so petty for God to think of us as enemies in need of punishment. No offense. I'm not calling God petty. I'm calling this view point, from my perspective, petty. I want to make clear that I'm not here to insult anyone for their beliefs or to insult God. {snip}
Boomygrrl

Nothing really could be further from the truth Boomygrrl
IF God was "hostile to us" He would have immediately destroyed Adam & Eve and started over. He would have never offered them reconciliation much less come Himself in the Person of Jesus the Christ and take man's sin upon Himself and die in their stead.

The fact is, man (Adam & Eve) were given many, many trees which they could have eaten of - ONLY ONE did He say they could not eat of. In order for man to be truly free to choose to obey or disobey, there needed to be the opportunity afforded them in which they could do so. And God clearly said that to eat of that particular tree would mean death. Eve understood God's command clearly and yet came to the conclusion that God was a killjoy and trying to prevent them from enjoying life to the fullest, having a "god-like" status -

Genesis 3:5 (the serpent speaking(Satan)) "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

In actual fact, we ARE the enemies of God until we are reconciled to God by the Sacrifice of His Son on the Cross - exchanging our sin for His righteousness -

Romans 5:8-10 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We we take of the free gift offered ALL men it is then we become children of God, no longer enemies but beloved by God because of the greatness of Christ's sacrifice for sin -

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons (and daughters) of God, even to them that believe on his name:

God give you strength in your journey to find truth - God says we will find Him when we seek for Him with all our hearts !!

Ray

foundNation · Sep 5, 2004

Hey, I am also new to posting on this forum, I have visited many times but your post inspired me to also post.

I must admit I have only been a Christian for 5 years now so forgive me if you disagree with what I say but please enlighten me if u feel what I say is wrong.

The way I came to Christ was quite dramatic, it was nothing gradual and I had never toyed with the idea or even considered I would be a 'Christian'. I had hardly read the bible if at all but for a time I found myself amongst worshiping Christians, it was then I thought What if? and then the answer came What love?, everything just made sense. I still had pretty much the same questions, and many more but it was from then on I had the belief in Gods word. It was the belief in Jesus that gained my belief in what the bible told. Apart from the knowledge that he existed

Sorry for giving you a part of my testimony, but you mentioned that every one quotes scripture and that that doesnt relate to you and I can fully understand. I agree with all the previous posts, some good stuff has been said.

Genesis is a brilliant place to start, as so many people have mentioned, it rounds up the bible before it has even begun. I just ask that you see the world through Gods eyes, and take a look at the mess we have gotten ourselves in to. At the beginning God must have felt quite lonely. Its all very well creating man as solution to that problem, but if we are left in a room packed full of random strangers who wont talk to you it becomes evident. Its not physical presence God desires but a close relationship!

People ask Where was God when that plain crashed? or Where was God when the Tornado struck? sorry but shouldnt the question be, Where are we?!!

It takes more than one person to have a relationship, and without a relationship you know little of the other person. Our sin is the object that blocks us not only from God, but also Gods sight!! Jesus death and resurrection was the answer to that question we are so sinful that unless we give our lives to Jesus we cannot be known by God, and have a relationship with him.

I realise that I communicated about more than what you had asked, sorry. I hope this helps.

With Love Andy

Asar'el · Sep 5, 2004

Why?, the great question that we have from almost as soon as we can think.
And Why not?!, a great answer

It is interesting to see how many different opinions there arise about everything - including creation, salvation, eternity, justice, goodness, truth, and a myriad of other subjects. What is it that makes one opinion better, or greater than another?

What it comes down, when we must think of God, is a matter of authority, and of absolutes. God, being the only true absolute, alone has authority to declare, with no cause required. He is not accountable to us, our whims, our opinions.

I believe the bible is God's word, and God's Spirit teaches us from Scripture what God has declared; we have neither authority nor leave to go beyond its words, and demand of Him more - indeed, when we truly see what we have, we cannot help but be awed!

In regard to the opening question, the declaration of Scripture is,

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Beginning with Adam and Eve, for who the first blood was shed, even the blood of the animals that gave their skins to cover them, God has shown us a heaveny truth: something innocent had to die to pay our debt. But when it comes down to the final matter, it declares

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Not even the blood of everything in Creation would be sufficient to pay for Adam (and for us). God Himself paid our debt. It costs the very precious blood of Jesus Christ to redeem sinners. When David was offered by Araunah that which he would buy, he replied

Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the LORD my God of that which doth cost me nothing.

How much greater than David's spirit is the Lord? When God shows us just how precious we are in His sight, why do some yet argue that God should 'redeem us for free'?

God gave Adam free will, the power to choose. Adam chose poorly. And with a great price is that choice redeemed.

Serapha · Sep 5, 2004

Boomygrrl said:
I know in the Old Testament God required living sacrifices as atonements. "Why?" would be my response to that, as well. I'm just not sure why God (as Jesus) had to die for us to save us. I'm not so sure I agree with "greater love has no one but this, that he lay down his life for his friends." ...

Back to the case for Jesus' suffering. Why did he have to suffer to appease God? Why couldn't God just forgive? Especially forgive those who are truly repentant and change their lives around.
Jesus dying to appease God creeps me out. There must be something I'm missing here.

Thanks,
Boomygrrl

Hi there!

So much of the suffering was a fulfillment of prophecy... and that is important in "proving" Christianity... because of that same fulfillment of prophecy.

As for the sacrifices.... it appears that God finds the sacrificial offering of flesh and blood to be a pleasing aroma...

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; ...

Ex 29:18 And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
that term, "a sweer savour" is found about 45 times in the Bible, so even though God is "spirit", He loves the odor which in Hebrew is considered "soothing"... it appears to please God's anthropomorphic senses.

And, as you have already been told, God has always required a blood atonement for sin, first in the sacrificial offerings of rams, birds, etc... and the final atonement in the sprinkling of Christ's blood on the mercy seat.

I hope this helps in your understanding...

~serapha~

Terral · Sep 5, 2004

Hi Boomygrrl:

Broomygrrl asked Why Did Jesus have to die?

By reading the posts above this one, you can see that there are many reasons why Christ had to die for our sins. There are two main reasons which I hope to share in this post. Please believe me when I say that nobody says it better than Gods Word. Note carefully that Christ said,

I am the bread of life. John 6:48.

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." John 6:51.

Before we continue, we need to understand something fundamental about the kind of faith that saves souls today. Do you realize that, of the Four Gospel accounts, the word faith (pistis) is not used in the Gospel of John? Also, the word grace (charis) is used only once outside of the first chapter of the Gospel of John (Luke 2:40). NASB. All five mentions of grace in the Four Gospels are directly tied to Jesus Christ. Please keep those facts in mind. Christ told His disciples,

And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you. Luke 17:6.

"Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be {granted} him. Mark 11:23

Do you believe that Christ envisioned mulberry trees and mountains being taken up and tossed too and fro by His disciples? No. He was simply telling them that they had absolutely no faith. Christ told His disciples over and over again,

"The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day." Luke 9:22 (See Matthew 17:23, 20:19).

And yet, when Mary came to these same disciples, after the crucifixion, and told them the good news, how many believed her?

She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it. Mark 16:10+11.

How on earth could Peter, John and James refuse to believe Marys report that He had risen, when He told them that this would happen for the past three years? The answer is that they simply had no faith. Jesus Christ is the bread of life that was broken for us all at Calvary. The faith that we need to believe the gospel was in Him. Let us read Pauls words about this saving faith very carefully,

So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Rom. 10:17.

That word hearing there is not about what we do with our ears. It is about placing ourselves into the position of obedience. Suppose you tell your child not to play in the street, then ten minutes later you catch him running in traffic. You run outside and grab the child and up and say, I told you not to go into the street, do you hear me?! Of course the child hears you, because you are shouting. But, your question was not about actual hearing, right? You are asking, Are you now ready to be obedient to my commands? This faith is the saving faith that became available to us, when the Bread of Life was broken at Calvary; the kind that allows us to truly believe. Paul writes to the Ephesians, saying,

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph. 2:8+9.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." Romans 1:16+17 (CAPS are OTquotes).

Now here is the key I believe you are looking for boomygrrl: When a saved person shares the gospel with the unsaved person, then the Holy Spirit within the saved person is standing there holding the faith for him to believe. So we say something like: Jesus Christ, the Son of God became flesh to die on the cross, be buried in the tomb, and on the third day God raised Him from the dead. (1Cor. 15:1-4). If the unsaved person places himself in the position to be obedient to the word of Christ, then the Holy Spirit hands him the faith to believe it. That gift of faith introduces the unbeliever to Gods grace. As it is written,

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1+2.

Christ had to go to the cross to suffer and die so that we could die with Him. The moment that we accept the gift of faith, and believe the good news that Christ died for our sins to be raised on the third day, something quite amazing happens. The believer is suddenly baptized into the body of Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. The moment that Christ died then the new believer dies with Him, lies there with Him in the tomb, and God also raises him with Christ Jesus to be seated in the heavenly places. As it is written,

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3+4.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-7.

We receive the Holy Spirit at the very moment that we hear and believe the gospel, and the Spirit of God places us into the one body.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph. 1:13+14.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1Cor. 12:13.

And that is how we become members of the body of Christ.

Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. 1Cor. 12:27.

For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also {does} the church, because we are members of His body. Ephesians 5:29+30.

The Law says that a man must die once, then the judgment. Hebrews 9:27. So guess what? When we hear and believe the gospel, and receive that gift of faith, then we died with Him. When God raised us up in Christ, then He judged us for sin. By seating us in the heavenly, then we are forgiven indeed. Now, when God looks at us, guess who He sees? When God looks at you in Christ, then He sees His Only Begotten Son. Thus, Paul writes,

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Galatians 3:25-27.

And now that you are truly been raised up in Christ, Paul tells us some more of the good news,

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Colossians 3:1-4.

Why did Christ have to die? So that we could share in His death, burial and resurrection; so that God could guarantee that our life could then be hidden with Christ inside Himself. And that is truly very good news worth sharing with everyone.

God bless,

Terral

Greatcloak · Sep 6, 2004

Terral does a good job of explaining what Jesus sacrifice and rebirth are, and do for us, but here's another aspect of the need for Jesus sacrifice is listed in Gen right at the fall. The why part of us needing that sacrifice to have taken place, and the place of animal sacrifice in the OT.

gen2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The penalty for sin is death. All humans, at birth, are bound by this penalty, because Adam, in the garden, choose the apple, and changed the nature of man to that of a sinner.

Gen3:21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

This is the first thing God did for Adam after the fall. Clothed him in the skin of an animal. This was the first animal sacrifice in the bible. God set out a precident that man could sacrifice an innocent animal, clothing himself in it's blood and innocents, and God would, in grace, choose to look upon him as having paid the wage of death to atone for his sin, and see him as innocent and pure. Animal sacrifice was a stopgap measure, a covering, not a change of nature, until the coming of Jesus, who truly, permantly took our sin, allowed us to be reborn through Him, as alive unto the Father, allowing the change of our nature from sinner, to child of God.

Why did Jesus have to die?

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Matthew 11:28

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