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Why did God make Different Aged Rocks

AV1611VET

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If the author were God, the moon would have been described as a mirror, the earth would have been described as a ball, and Joshua would have stopped the earth from moving around the sun, not the other way around.
I'm sure you meant 'rotating'.
 
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sandwiches

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The difference is that the OP uses rocks, and you're using people; but the concept is the same: God created two "objects" with different ages.

What you fail to understand is that if we can detect 'age' in an object or organism, it's because we can determine its history to some degree. For instance, how do we determine age in a tree? Dendrochronology, which counts the rings and which shows the effects of different environmental events such as floods, droughts, diseases, etc. Same with Adam and Eve. If they were created to be around 30 years of age, then they would have a history of growth, such as having teeth, hair, and nails, anterior and posterior fontanels having fused, sexual maturity, etc. These all show a history of growth. So, "age without history" is a meaningless phrase.
 
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Freodin

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What you fail to understand is that if we can detect 'age' in an object or organism, it's because we can determine its history to some degree.

This now is a major problem. It is the one problem that one the one hand enables AV to promote his "embedded age" idea, but also the problem that refutes his idea, were he to understand the consequences correctly.

The problem is: we cannot detect "age" at all. We do indeed observe certain "states" and from that and our knowledge of processes extrapolate an "age".

So an object in a certain state would be dated to a certain age, regardless of how it reached that state.

But there is a rub: the objects wouldn´t be that age. Our dating would simply be wrong, because it would be based on faulty premises.

What if we had that Star Trek technology? Replicators, which could form matter of any pattern from pure energy. If we´d use it to replicate an old object, say, a Rembrandt painting, this object would date to 400 years old. Any methods that we would apply to date it would show that age.
But it wouldn´t be that age. We could prove that it wasn´t that age, just by documenting the whole process and showing that the painting had not been there five minutes ago.

Now let´s say we had the great pleasure to welcome God in our Star Trek lab, who was willing to help with a little experiment. He created a Rembrandt painting and embedded it with age.

As our dating methods depend on the, erm, "mature" state of the painting, it would be completely indistinguishable from our replicated painting. There would be absolutely no difference to keep the falsly dated replica from the embedded age version. They are completely identical!

There is no way to distinguish "embedded age" from a fake. Wait, there is not only no way to distinguish them.... there is no difference. They are equal.

But both versions show history. They show brushstrokes, they show that different parts have been painted at a different time. FAKE history, that has never happened, but history nontheless.

And they do that for a single reason: a painting needs brushstrokes to be a painting. And it needs it again for a single reason: because a painting is PAINTED!
 
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Split Rock

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I'm sure you meant 'rotating'.

'Rotation' is a movement. So, 'moving' is correct. However, if you were feeling pedantic, then it would have been 'revolving' not 'rotating.'

As sandwiches wrote, the technical term would be revolve. But, then if God were truly the author of The Bible, He would have said the earth did both: revolve around the sun while it rotates. As if it was actually written by men before men understood such things, it doesn't. Coincedence?

How about responding to my suggestion that you should reject embedded age because it simple doesn't work? Why do you feel the need to cling to it, as if your entire faith in Jesus depends on it? Does it?
 
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AV1611VET

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What you fail to understand is that if we can detect 'age' in an object or organism, it's because we can determine its history to some degree.
And what, in your opinion, would be the minimum age a person can walk, talk, be given a job, get married and have children?

If you say Adam was any older than 1 day old, then you're admitting to embedded age?

And if you say Adam was any less than 2 days old, yet did all the above, then you have some explaining to do.
These all show a history of growth.
Please show me Adam's growth profile from one-day-old, up until the day he got married.
So, "age without history" is a meaningless phrase.
I don't use that phrase.
 
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AV1611VET

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'Rotation' is a movement. So, 'moving' is correct. However, if you were feeling pedantic, then it would have been 'revolving' not 'rotating.'
'Revolving' is equally wrong -- 'rotating' is the word you're looking for.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Please show there was an invisible, three day old, turquoise unicorn driving a pink lamborghini down my street.
 
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AV1611VET

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But both versions show history. They show brushstrokes, they show that different parts have been painted at a different time. FAKE history, that has never happened, but history nontheless.
And the moment God called into existence that Rembrandt, is He guilty of deception?

What if He called into existence footprints in the snow?
 
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Skaloop

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Rotate, I believe, is the word you're looking for.

It's both, I would think. Earth rotates (one rotation being one day) and it revolves around the Sun in its orbit (one revolution being one year).
 
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AV1611VET

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It's both...
No, it's not -- it's "rotate" -- period.
If the author were God ... Joshua would have stopped the earth from moving around the sun, not the other way around.
Show me where "revolution" is in the Joshua passage.

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
 
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Skaloop

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Where does Joshua mention rotate?

If the sun is to be still, then the Earth must stop both rotating and revolving.
 
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Split Rock

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Rotate, I believe, is the word you're looking for.


No, it's not -- it's "rotate" -- period.

Show me where "revolution" is in the Joshua passage.
The earth does both (you are right, it should have been "rotate," sorry), but I would expect neither revolve nor rotate to be terms used in The Bible. Let's look at the passage again:

"Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon."

One can certainly interpret this as poetic, but the implication here is pretty obvious. Both the sun and the moon stop in their "transit" across the sky. Under what circumstance would both the sun and the moon stop their relative motion to the earth? No single event can do this. If the earth stopped revolving, then the sun would appear to stop, but the moon would not (Actually, you would really have to "lock" the rotation of the earth so that the same half always faced the sun, not completely stop it). If the moon's revolution around the earth stopped, it would not affect the earth's rotation. Only with a geocentric model, with both the sun and the moon revolving around the earth, would it be possible to stop them both, if one could stop the movement of the "firmament," or "heavens." Is this airtight? No, it is not. If we look at the Bible in its entirety, however, the implication is for a geocentric system. There is certainly NO implication of a heliocentic system anywhere in scripture. Yet, if God wrote The Bible, why is this?

*Added: Skaloop mentioned another way to make the sun appear to stop in the sky and that would be to stop both the earth's rotation and its revolution around the sun.
 
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Split Rock

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Where does Joshua mention rotate?

If the sun is to be still, then the Earth must stop both rotating and revolving.

You could do this, or you could "lock" the earth's rotation so that the same half always faced the sun... like the moon does in its orbit around the earth.
 
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AV1611VET

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One can certainly interpret this as poetic, but the implication here is pretty obvious.
We've been over this before -- haven't we?

But just to put this matter to rest (at least with me, anyway), and send you guys elsewhere (since I'm really getting tired of this nonsense) -- just for kicks, let me ask you this, Split Rock:

What makes you think the solar system wasn't geocentric at the time Joshua wrote that passage?

(Please answer this.)

[I may as well get blamed for derailing this thread -- but don't say I didn't try to keep it on track.]
 
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Skaloop

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What makes you think the solar system wasn't geocentric at the time Joshua wrote that passage?

What makes you think it was?

But to answer your question, there is the matter of physics/mass/gravity that would make it geocentrism quite unlikely.
 
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AV1611VET

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What makes you think it was?
Actually, I don't think it is -- but there are some that just don't want to give up on the Bible saying it is, so I'm going to accommodate them and give them what they want, just to break the monotony.
But to answer your question, there is the matter of physics/mass/gravity that would make it geocentrism quite unlikely.
Would this be the same physics/mass/gravity that would make Jesus walking on water quite unlikely? or make the sun existing before the earth quite unlikely?
 
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Split Rock

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Really? The solar system used to be geocentric??? Are you now a convert to Dadology? Sure AVET, you can take everything that the Bible gets Wrong, whether it is sticks making cattle stripped, a geocentric solar system, witches making pacts with Satan, cud chewing rabbits, earth before the sun, insanity due to demons, unicorns were real, etc., etc. and claim it all used to really be that way, just because you want to believe the Bible was written inerrantly by God. As you say, Reality Can Take a Hike. Just don't come here and tell us you know anything about The Truth.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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It's obvious why God created rocks of different ages.

Think about it: God created rocks of different ages in order to trick atheists and scientists into deceiving themselves and also to tempt them into lives of sin and perversion so they will burn in lakes of eternal Hellfire.

Furthermore, it's a known scientific fact that the Earth stopped rotating.

"According to the legend, the ancient peoples [of Lake Titicaca] had been without light for many days." -- Clive L. N. Ruggles, archaeoastronomer, 2005

"It is said that in this province [Titicaca] the people of ancient times tell of being without light from the heavens for many days, and all of the local inhabitants were astonished, confused, and frightened to have total darkness for such a long time. Finally, the people of the Island of Titicaca saw the Sun come up one morning out of that crag with extraordinary radiance." -- Bernabé Cobo, historian, 1990

"Could the [American] Indians on this continent know the connection between the sun appearing over the horizon, Eastern horizon, dropping down, again appearing, dropping down, and all the continent, this continent, bursting in flame? How could they know the connection? So they could not invent the stories. Something must have happened." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966

"... the solar system may have changed so much since it was created that a study of the present state would tell us very little about it's origin." -- Hannes O.G. Alfvén, physicist, 1954

"In -747 [B.C.] a new calendar was introduced in the Middle East, and that year is known as 'the beginning of the era of Nabonassar.' It is asserted that some astronomical event gave birth to this new calendar, but the nature of the event is not known. The beginning of the age of Nabonassar, otherwise an obscure Babylonian king, was an astronomical date used as late as the second Christian century by the great mathematician and astronomer of the Alexandrian school, Ptolemy, and also by other scholars. It was employed as a point of departure of ancient astronomical tables. 'This was not a political or religious era.... Farther back there was no certainty in regard to the calculation of time. It is from that moment that the records of the eclipses begin which Ptolemy used.' [Cumont, F., 1912] What was the astronomical event that closed the previous era and gave birth to a new era?" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"In the tomb of Senmut, the architect of Queen Hatshepsut, a panel on the ceiling shows the celestial sphere with 'a reversed orientation' or the southern sky. The end of the Middle Kingdom antedated the time of Queen Hatshepsut by several centuries. The astronomical ceiling presenting a reversed orientation must have been a venerated chart, made obsolete a number of centuries earlier. 'A characteristic feature of the Senmut ceiling is the astronomically objectionable orientation of the souther panel.' The center of this panel is occupied by the Orion-Sirius group, in which Orion appears west of Sirius instead of east. 'The orientating of the southern panel is such that a person in the tomb looking at it has to lift his head and face north, not south.' 'With the reversed orientation of the south panel, Orion, the most conspicuous constellation of the southern sky, appeared to be moving eastward, i.e., in the wrong direction.' [Pogo, A., 1930]" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"The most incredible story." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"Uranus has the sun rising and setting neither in the east nor in the west. So it is not a law that a planet of the solar system must rotate from west to east and that the sun must rise in the east." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"If, occasionally, historical evidence does not square with formulated laws, it should be remembered that a law is but a deduction from experience and experiment, and therefore laws must conform with historical facts, not facts with laws." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"The signs of the Chinese zodiac have the strange peculiarity of proceeding in a retrograde direction, that is, against the course of the sun." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"The Chinese say that it is only since a new order of things has come about that the stars move from east to west." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"The next reference to meteors is found in the Chinese annals for 687 B.C. It is given by Biot as follows: '(March 23), during the night the fixed stars did not appear, although the night was clear. In the middle of the night, stars (des étoiles) fell like rain.' The account is translated in another way by Abel-Remmat who makes the last part read: 'there fell a star in the form of rain.'" -- Charles P. Olivier, astronomer, 1925

"... when the Duke of Lu-yang [Huai-nan-tse] was at war against Han, during the battle the sun went down. The Duke, swinging his spear, beckoned to the sun, whereupon the sun, for his sake, came back and passed through three solar mansions." -- Alfred Forke, philosopher, 1925

"According to a different account, which found favour with the Latin poets, the sun reversed his course in the sky, not in order to demonstrate the right of Atreus to the crown, but on the contrary to mark his disgust and horror at the king for murdering his nephews and dishing up their mangled limbs to their father Thyestes at table." -- James G. Frazer, translator, 1920

"As told by Huaman Poma, five such ages had preceded that in which he lived. The first was an age of Viracochas, an age of gods, of holiness, of life without death, although at the same time it was devoid of inventions and refinements; the second was an age of skin-clad giants, the Huari Runa, or 'Indigenes,' worshippers of Viracocha; third came the age of Puron Runa, or 'Common Men,' living without culture; fourth, that of Auca Runa, 'Warriors,' and fifth that of the Inca rule, ended by the coming of the Spaniards." -- Hartley B. Alexander, historian, 1920

"Harakhte [The Sun] ... he rises in the west...." -- James H. Breasted, egyptologist, 1906

"The travelling toward the east [of the sun] and the disappearance in the east ... must be understood literally...." -- Eduard Seler, anthropologist, 1903

"The nations of Culhua, or Mexico, says Gomara, who wrote about the middle of the sixteenth century, believe according to their hieroglyphical paintings, that, previous to the sun which now enlightens them, four had already been successively extinguished. These four suns are as many ages, in which our species has been annihilated by inundations, by earthquakes, by a general conflagration, and by the effect of destroying tempests." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1814

"That the sun will not rise to-morrow is no less intelligible a proposition, and implies no more contradiction, than the affirmation, that it will rise." -- David Hume, philosopher, 1772

"The problem set forth by the [Royal Berlin] Academy [of Sciences] is expressed in the following terms: Whether the Earth in its Rotation around its Axis, by which it brings about the alternation of day and night, has undergone any alteration since the first period of its origin. What may be the cause of this, and what can make us certain of it? The question may be investigated historically. This may be done by examining monuments of antiquity dating from remotest times...." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1754

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests!" -- Quran 55:17

"The inhabitants of this country [Egypt] say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose." -- Gaius J. Solinus, grammarian, 3rd century

"Soles fuerre quinque." [There were five suns] -- Lucius Ampelius, tutor, date unknown

"O all-enduring Phoebus, though thou didst shrink afar, and in mid-sky didst bury the darkened day, still thou didst set too late." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"Whither, O father of the lands and skies, before whose rising thick night with all her glories flees, whither doest turn thy course and why dost blot out the day in mid-Olympus? Why, O Phoebus, dost snatch away thy face? Not yet does Vesper, twilight’s messenger, summon the fires of night; not yet does thy wheel, turning its western goal, bid free thy steeds from their completed task; not yet as day fades into night has the third trump sounded; the ploughman with oxen yet unwearied stands amazed at his supper-hour’s quick coming. What has driven thee from thy heavenly course? What cause form their fixed track has turned aside thy horses? Is the prison-house of Dis thrown wide and are the conquered Giants again essaying war?" -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"The Zodiac, which, making passage through the sacred stars, crosses the zones obliquely, guide and sign-bearer for the slow-moving years, falling itself, shall see the fallen constellations; the Ram, who, ere kindly spring has come, gives back the sails to the warm West-wind, headlong shall plunge into the waves o’er which he had borne the trembling Helle; the Bull, who before him on bright horns bears the Hyades, shall drag the Twins down with him and the Crab’s wide-curving claws; Alcides’ Lion, with burning heat inflamed, once more shall fall down from the sky; the Virgin shall fall to the earth she once abandoned, and the Scales of justice with their weights shall fall and with them shall drag the fierce Scorpion down; old Chiron, who sets the feathered shafts upon Haemonian chord, shall lose his shafts from the snapped bowstring; the frigid Goat who brings back sluggish winter, shall fall and break thy urn, whoe’er thou art; with thee shall fall the Fish, last of the stars of heaven, and the Wain, which was ne’er bathed by the sea, shall be plunged beneath the all-engulfing waves; the slippery Serpent which, gliding like a river, separates the Bears, shall fall, and icy Cynosura, the Lesser Bear, together with the Dragon vast, congealed with cold; and that slow-moving drive of his wain, Arctophylax, no longer fixed in place, shall fall." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"... the day was retarded in contrariety to nature, and the sun delayed." -- Plutarch, historian, 1st century

"The sun set in the East." -- Apollodoros, Scholium on the Iliad: Book II, ~143 B.C.

"And it may be supposed to result in the greatest changes to the human beings who are the inhabitants of the world at the time. ... And animals, as we know, survive with difficulty great and serious changes of many different kinds when they come upon them at once. ... Hence there necessarily occurs a great destruction of them, which extends also to-the life of man; few survivors of the race are left, and those who remain become the subjects of several novel and remarkable phenomena ...." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesmen, 360 B.C.

"The reversal which takes place from time to time of the motion of the universe. ... Of all changes of the heavenly motions, we may consider this to be the greatest and most complete. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There is a time when God himself guides and helps to roll the world in its course; and there is a time, on the completion of a certain cycle, when he lets go, and the world being a living creature, and having originally received intelligence from its author and creator turns about and by an inherent necessity revolves in the opposite direction." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There did really happen, and will again happen, like many other events of which ancient tradition has preserved the record, the portent which is traditionally said to have occurred in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes. ... how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"Then, it was then that Zeus changed the radiant paths of the stars, and the light of the sun, and the bright face of dawn; and the sun drove across the western back of the sky with hot flame from heaven's fires, while the rain-clouds went northward and Ammon's lands [Egypt] grew parched and faint, not knowing moisture, robbed of heaven's fairest showers of rain." --Euripides, playwright, Electra, 408 B.C.

"... here also everyone bows down before him who reversed the circuit of the sun." -- Sophocles, playwright, Fragment 738, 410 B.C.

"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotus, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"Let not the sun go down and disappear into darkness." -- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book II: 413

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" -- Matthew 24:29

"Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God." -- Micah 3:6-7

"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:" -- Amos 8:9

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." -- Isaiah 38:8

"And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz." -- II Kings 20:11

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed..." -- Joshua 10:13

"Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -- Joshua 10:13

"Indeed, the land turns around as does a potter's wheel." -- Ipuwer, scribe, Papyrus II, date debated
 
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