Why aren't you a Calvinist?

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, FIC

Is this regeneration?

Eze 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

Peace to u,

Bill

Do we get a new spirit before we even believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins?

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Do we get a new spirit before we even believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins?

Good Day, FIC

I do not see what effect this has on the question I asked. "Get" effected yes I would agree. We can only believe as the direct result of the work of God, the means of that work being His H/S so, yes we "get". The means of salvation was Christ, the means of believing is the H/S.

In regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination. By a Spirit that is new to us, seeing we were dead in our sin so also was our "old" spirit.

So, is that regeneration from your Point of view?

Peace to u,

Bill

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, FIC

I do not see what effect this has on the question I asked. "Get" effected yes I would agree. We can only believe as the direct result of the work of God, the means of that work being His H/S so, yes we "get". The means of salvation was Christ, the means of believing is the H/S.

In regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination. By a Spirit that is new to us, seeing we were dead in our sin so also was our "old" spirit.

So, is that regeneration from your Point of view?

Peace to u,

Bill

I have clearly, repeatedly,written that regeneration is being born again. It is at that time our sins are removed via the 'washing of regeneration', we are made new creatures, we are spiritually circumcized, we are adopted as children of God, and we re given the Holy Spirit as a pledge of God Himself of our inheritence.

Belief is prior to regeneration - on MUST beleive to saved (born again). We are saved (born again) by grace through faith (belief).

We are not regenerated (born again)- then come to believe in Christ.

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
I have clearly, repeatedly,written that regeneration is being born again. It is at that time our sins are removed via the 'washing of regeneration', we are made new creatures, we are spiritually circumcized, we are adopted as children of God, and we re given the Holy Spirit as a pledge of God Himself of our inheritence.

Belief is prior to regeneration - on MUST beleive to saved (born again). We are saved (born again) by grace through faith (belief).

We are not regenerated (born again)- then come to believe in Christ.

Good day, FIC

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think we have to agree to disagree the things of God are foolish to them that are in a natural state. If the thing of God is the work of having belief "faith" then in our natural state we can not understand it, never mind have that faith "gift".

I will say that most Calvinist hold that regeneration proceeds faith, but not all. RC Sproul sees them as being two things that happen at the same time. I wish I had his quote on this issue, but I do not. Even though that logicly in order to be believing, one must be removed from a natural state before one can believe. I am not at all contray that they corologicly[sp] done by God at the same instant.

The regeneration is when the 'vessel is cleaned' and then the Holy Spirit STAYS.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, the vessel is cleaned and then.Peace to u,Bill

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Good day, Seed

Hope all is well with you. Can I add some of my old ones build upon the Tradition of men?

Peace to u,

Bill

What do you mean?

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
John 14:18 is not about the Holy Spirit convicting

John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;Jhn 14:17 {that is} the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.Jhn 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is talking to His disciples here - beleivers.

And 'convicting' is not 'regeneration'.

This is proof that The Holy Spirit can be with somebody without the indwelling. Also, as BBAS pointed out, the natural man can on recieve the things of God because they are Spiritually diserned. Even Arminiast agree with this, but they refuse the doctrine of irristible grace. So you can't say that belief comes without the Spirit, that would be Pelegianism which is rejected by both Prots and Catholics.

Regeneration is conviciton ,because we can't be convicted of sin unless we see it. And we can't see without the Light which God reveals (John 1:5, 18). And we can't understand God without His Spirit because our spirits are dead.

John 14
17 that is (25) the Spirit of truth, (26) whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Eusebios · Jun 3, 2004

I'm not a Calvinist becaue I dont like TULIPS.

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

theseed said:
This is proof that The Holy Spirit can be with somebody without the indwelling. Also, as BBAS pointed out, the natural man can on recieve the things of God because they are Spiritually diserned. Even Arminiast agree with this, but they refuse the doctrine of irristible grace. So you can't say that belief comes without the Spirit, that would be Pelegianism which is rejected by both Prots and Catholics.

Regeneration is conviciton ,because we can't be convicted of sin unless we see it. And we can't see without the Light which God reveals (John 1:5, 18). And we can't understand God without His Spirit because our spirits are dead.

John 14
17 that is (25) the Spirit of truth, (26) whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Regeneration is not used as 'conviction' in scripture. It doesn't mean conviction. And that verse is spoken to His disciples....who would be indwelled on the Day of Pentecost. It is important to consider how the Spirit worked prePentecost and from the Day of Pentecost on when looking at this verse.

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think we have to agree to disagree the things of God are foolish to them that are in a natural state. If the thing of God is the work of having belief "faith" then in our natural state we can not understand it, never mind have that faith "gift".

The word translated as nature is psuchikos and does refer to man's animal instincts. Without the Holy Spirit, there is much we cannot discern. However, this does not preclude the need to beleive before being born again.

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

Eusebios said:
I'm not a Calvinist becaue I dont like TULIPS.

Well, I really like tulips....still not a Calvinist, though.

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Regeneration is not used as 'conviction' in scripture. It doesn't mean conviction. And that verse is spoken to His disciples....who would be indwelled on the Day of Pentecost. It is important to consider how the Spirit worked prePentecost and from the Day of Pentecost on when looking at this verse.

Conviciton of sin is how the Holy Spirit changes the heart of the beleiver, thereby regenerating him (Jere. 31, Ezek. 36). This is where God writes his laws on our hearts. Arminiast agree with this, but argue that it is resistble, and at anytime we can lose our salvation.

Here is how the Baptist Faith and Message describe it.

"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/4.html

BBAS 64 · Jun 4, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
The word translated as nature is psuchikos and does refer to man's animal instincts. Without the Holy Spirit, there is much we cannot discern. However, this does not preclude the need to beleive before being born again.

Good day, FIC

With out the H/S we can discern nothing when it is of God. It is as you have said does not preclude belif, but shows that belif as an impossible. Because we are governed by the wrong "old" spirit, with out the "new" Spirit

Vine's nt word useages:
1Co 2:14 -

The natural man (ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος)

See on Rom_11:4, on the distinction between ψυχή soul, life, and πνεῦμα spirit. The contrast is between a man governed by the divine Spirit and one from whom that Spirit is absent. But ψυχικὸς natural, is not equivalent to σαρκικός fleshy. Paul is speaking of natural as contrasted with spiritual cognition applied to spiritual truth, and therefore of the ψυχή soul, as the organ of human cognition, contrasted with the πνεῦμα spirit, as the organ of spiritual cognition. The man, therefore, whose cognition of truth depends solely upon his natural insight is ψυχικός natural, as contrasted with the spiritual man (πνευματικός) to whom divine insight is imparted. In other words, the organ employed in the apprehension of spiritual truth characterizes the man. Paul therefore "characterizes the man who is not yet capable of understanding divine wisdom as ψυχικός, i.e., as one who possesses in his ψυχή soul, simply the organ of purely human cognition, but has not yet the organ of religious cognition in the πνεῦμα spirit" (Dickson). It is perhaps impossible to find an English word which will accurately render ψυχικός. Psychic is simply the Greek transcribed. We can do no better than hold by the A.V. natural.

The primary"roots" first derivitve/ it's akin for psuchikos:

psuchē

psoo-khay'

From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Peace to u,
Bill

BBAS 64 · Jun 4, 2004

Good day,

Spurgeon on John 3:16

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1850.htm

And on the serpent of John 3:14

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0153.htm

Bill

FreeinChrist · Jun 4, 2004

theseed said:
Conviciton of sin is how the Holy Spirit changes the heart of the beleiver, thereby regenerating him (Jere. 31, Ezek. 36). This is where God writes his laws on our hearts. Arminiast agree with this, but argue that it is resistble, and at anytime we can lose our salvation.

Yes there is conviction. God draws a person to Christ.
But 'regeneration' means rebirth.

'Regeneration' - palinggenesia - recovery, new birth, renovation. The word is taken from palin which means 'again', and ginomai which means 'to become'.

It is used in scripture here:
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

A related verse:
1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.

The Greek word for 'born again' here is anagennao which means to begat again, to egenerate, to be regenerated.
palinggenesia and anagennao are related words, though I am not enough of a Greek scholar to explain how.

'conviction' - the only place I see the use of this word is here:
Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. KJV

Conviction and regeneration are two different things.
Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts the believer. Yes, God draws man to Christ. But the act of regeneration follows belief.

We MUST believe. We must repent of sin. No getting around that.

Here is how the Baptist Faith and Message describe it.

"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/4.html

And I actually have little problem with that. "Regeneration, or the new birth," - agrees with what I just wrote and have written. Change of heart....great....BUT the sinner must beleive and accept.

The Baptist Faith and message also says this:
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

And this:

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/5.html
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end.

BTW - I am not an Arminian either. I beleive in the preservation of the saints - OSAS. That true believers are kept by the power of God.

One does not HAVE to be a Calvinist or an Arminian.

theseed · Jun 4, 2004

FIC said:
And I actually have little problem with that. "Regeneration, or the new birth," - agrees with what I just wrote and have written. Change of heart....great....BUT the sinner must beleive and accept.

And of course he will believe. Unless you believe he can resist, and if that's true, then he can resist later as well as lose his salvation. This is where the logical consistancy comes in.

One does not HAVE to be a Calvinist or an Arminian.

Only if one wishes to be logically inconsistant.

BTW, I am in complete agreement with the BF&M.

When one is born from above, or born again, then they understand the things of the Spirit, and spirtual matters. Nicodemus was not born again, that is why he did not understand. The world only understands the things of the world, but he who is born from above (greek = anonthen) is no longer a part of this world. That is why the disciples are not part of the world (John 17). The world does not understand the Light (John 1.5). But those born again do, they can see because the Father as explained the Light to them (John 1.18).

Therefore, there is clear evidence in John that regeneration proceeds belief.

FreeinChrist · Jun 4, 2004

theseed said:
And of course he will believe. Unless you believe he can resist, and if that's true, then he can resist later as well as lose his salvation. This is where the logical consistancy comes in.

Only if one wishes to be logically inconsistant.

BTW, I am in complete agreement with the BF&M.

When one is born from above, or born again, then they understand the things of the Spirit, and spirtual matters. Nicodemus was not born again, that is why he did not understand. The world only understands the things of the world, but he who is born from above (greek = anonthen) is no longer a part of this world. That is why the disciples are not part of the world (John 17). The world does not understand the Light (John 1.5). But those born again do, they can see because the Father as explained the Light to them (John 1.18).

Therefore, there is clear evidence in John that regeneration proceeds belief.

I see your view as 'logically inconsistent' for you are assuming that a man cannot resist the grace of God. The Israelites did it over and over and over.

And you are taking scripture out of context to try an make your point. The disciples and Christians today 'are not part of this world' because, as Pauls states, our citizenship is in heaven. The disciples were already following Christ. They already beleived (except Judas I. ) that Jesus was the Messiah.

And we can repent of our sin and have a simple belief before being regenerated. We definitely grow in discernment AFTER we are regenerated,understanding much more after.... but to say we have to be regenerated before we can even beleive is just plain unscriptural.

I haven't seen any proof from John that regeneration - being born again - occurs prior to believing.

theseed · Jun 4, 2004

I see your view as 'logically inconsistent' for you are assuming that a man cannot resist the grace of God. The Israelites did it over and over and over.

Actually, I've studied this stuff for 6 months now. And I can say that if you don't, then you want understand it--not meaning that you might accept it. So I assume nothing here., and thus remain consistant from one premise to the next. If we can resist grace, then we can lose our salvation--but you are oblivious to that. Please explain how we can resist grace, but be eternally secure?

And you are taking scripture out of context to try an make your point. The disciples and Christians today 'are not part of this world' because, as Pauls states, our citizenship is in heaven. The disciples were already following Christ. They already beleived (except Judas I. ) that Jesus was the Messiah.

You assume that John only means the 12, and you would assume falsely because John often refers to more than 12 disciples. Also, I've studied John in depth, and continue to do so. The disciples were believers because the were born again, so you statement here makes no sense. Believers ahve thier citizenship in heaven because that his where they are born.

And we can repent of our sin and have a simple belief before being regenerated. We definitely grow in discernment AFTER we are regenerated,understanding much more after.... but to say we have to be regenerated before we can even beleive is just plain unscriptural.

Are you saying that we can believe without the Holy Spirits help?

I haven't seen any proof from John that regeneration - being born again - occurs prior to believing.

Probably because you refuse to look or understand.

We only believe if we see, and we only see if we are not part of the World which is blind and dark and can't see. If you do a word search of "world" in John, you will find that it is symbolic for blindness about 50 times. And you will find that Christ is the Light. And without that Light we can't see. And the world does not believe Christ (John 16:9). Therefore those who do believe are not part of this world. This means that they recieved the Light of Christ. Can they resist the Light? No, because darkness does not overcome the Light (John 1:5). No man has seen/undeerstood God (Christ) at anytime, but God has explained Christ (John 1:18). Regeneration saves us (Titus 3.5-7).

Just as we have no choice of being born physically, so too we have no choice but to be born spiritually. Not only do we have to do it, but we want to do it.

theseed · Jun 4, 2004

Here is my new thread about the "Myths and Misconcpetions of Calvininims".

http://www.christianforums.com/t695143

theseed · Jun 4, 2004

FIC, funny that you should mention Israel, whom God hardened so that the Gentiles might be saved. God gave the Israels a "spirit of stupor" so they would continue to sin. But some he did not--according to his gracious choice.

Romans 11 (NASB)
4 But what is the divine response to him? "(8) I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (9) a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6 But (10) if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What (11) Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (12) hardened;
8 just as it is written,
"(13) GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
9 And David says,
"(14) LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10
"(15) LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
11 (16) I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (17) May it never be! But by their transgression (18) salvation has come to the Gentiles, to (19) make them jealous.

TheScottsMen · Jun 7, 2004

Where does the Bible say that God predestined people for Hell? Or is this only a logical conclusion you must come to if you are a Calvinist?

Why aren't you a Calvinist?

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