Why aren't you a Calvinist?

Mary_Magdalene · Jun 3, 2004

then go ahead theseed.

Great posts FIC!!! Here are some reps coming your way girl!!!

eldermike · Jun 3, 2004

Regeneration is not indwelling, it's a heart condition. A hardened heart will not cry out to God even if it sees the sea split down the middle making a dry road to safety.

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

I disagree. I believe regeneration means born again which is what happens when we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration - palinggenesia - recovery, new birth, renovation. The word is taken from palin which means 'again', and ginomai which means 'to become'.

Belief precedes regeneration:
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

Godschosengirl said:
Great posts FIC!!! Here are some reps coming your way girl!!!

Thanks for the encouragement!

eldermike · Jun 3, 2004

I disagree. I believe regeneration means born again which is what happens when we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration - palinggenesia - recovery, new birth, renovation. The word is taken from palin which means 'again', and ginomai which means 'to become'.

But I said

Regeneration is not indwelling

A regenerated heart will cry out to God.....So belief is a gift, an outcome of regeneration, an act of God. Indwelling is a responce to our cry.

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
hmmm...you had written this (note what i make bold):
"In reading though this thread from those whom do not up hold the doctrines of Grace. I can say that I have been there and understand the issues you have raised. It wouls appear though that not may Baptist have read Spurgeon with reguards to this issue and the historical view of Baptists and the doctrines of Grace."
Since I, and many other nonCalvinists, beleive that salvation is by grace through faith....how are we not holding up the doctrines of Grace? I asked this before and you wrote:
"The term Doctrines of Grace has been used over and over by Augustine to current day people such as James White to describe the whole of refemormed theology."
That is why I suggest, when debating nonCalvinists, you make of point of saying the Reformed Doctrine of Grace. For one thing, you can't honestly refer to Augustine as Reformed. The Reformation happened about 1200 years after Augustine.

Good Day, FIC

You have made my point, it is shown that the Doctires of Grace came long to be before the Reformation by Augustine. My last word on this is that one can hold to grace alone and still refrain from the historical truths of the Doctrine of Grace, as they preceed the Reformation. Part and parcel of the Doctrine of Grace is the grace alone doctrine.

It would be more accurate to say that we disagree on aspects fo salvation, but not to imply that we do not believe in salvation by grace. So I beleive my suggestion has merit, if you are going to debate with nonCalvinists.

I see what you are saying here. In order to debate with any one a historical context should be in place. I am sure that most people can reconize the differance between "grace alone" and the doctrine of Grace.

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That is what some Calvinists have claimed. They claim the person is regenerated first - then brought to belief in Christ. Yet, scripture shows that belief comes before the indwelling.

I can't find scriptural support for that.

Indwelling is differnet then regeneration. You have contuined to make them the same. If they are the same then can the H/S indwell a non regrerated person?

How does God regenerate a person?

[/color][/size]

I beleive it is consistent with the overall message from God. that Paul was addressing Christians is the reson for the us/we....but doesn't change that He planned for mankind to come to salvation:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Ypu can beleive that it is consistant but the context of that passage leaves you wanting for context that is not there. Mankind is not in that passage you have added that to the passage to arrive at a conclusion the text will not support. The text is quite clear in and of it's self.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now I have read the Reformed postionion on this verse, but I beleive it is in eror as it is about John 3:16 in claiming the world kosmos doesn't mean the world (kosmos).

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties {and} prayers, petitions {and} thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.

Cite please One reformed person whom says this about Jn 3:16.

John Owens:

First, If this word whosoever be distributive, then it is restrictive of the love of God to some, and not to others,to one part of the distribution, and not the other. And if it do not restrain the love of God, intending the salvation of some, then it is not distributive of the fore-mentioned object of it; and if it do restrain it, then all are not intended in the love which moved God to give his Son. Secondly, I deny that the word here is distributive of the object of Gods love, but only declarative of his end and aim in giving Christ in the pursuit of that love,to wit, that all believers might be saved. So that the sense is, God so loved his elect throughout the world, that he gave his Son with this intention, that by him believers might be saved. And this is all that is by any (besides a few worthless cavils) objected from this place to disprove our interpretation.

[/color][/size][/size]
Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

The 'work of God', in this verse, refers to the fact that the Word was made flesh and sent to die for our sins and we are to beleive. It is not saying that it is His work to make (forcibly)some to believe and leave the rest to suffer in hell.

We do have to beleive. No way around that.
I don't see that it supports your position. Moses held the serpent up for all the Israelites to see.

Now there is an interesting thing about this that I read in the New England Jounal of Medicine about 20 years ago. There is a disease endemic to the Sinai penninsula called, in English, Guinea Worm disease. Ancient Hebrew did not have a separate word for worm...it was the same word for snake.

What happens with this disease is that a person drinks from water with the worm larvae in it, and the larvae settle in the subcutaneous tissues. It grows there to about 3 feet long, though coiled. The area where it grows becomes painful and sore. If you try to remove the worm, it will break and the toxin inside the worm gets out and kills. The ONLY way to remove the wrom is to let it come out by itself, by holding a stick at the wound and the worm will circle up the stick and come out.
Read the account of this problem in Numbers. 'Uttermost' probably should be translated 'outermost'. They campd around a main water source. The ones who sinned probably drank from another water source that was contaminated. By holding up the staff with the snake, Moses was showing them how to deal with the 'snake' removal without dying. If they did it another way, they would have died. There was one way to salvation....they had to do it that way.

Got to go Home now will continue at a later time.

Bill

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
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Good Day, FIC

You have made my point, it is shown that the Doctires of Grace came long to be before the Reformation by Augustine. My last word on this is that one can hold to grace alone and still refrain from the historical truths of the Doctrine of Grace, as they preceed the Reformation. Part and parcel of the Doctrine of Grace is the grace alone doctrine.[/color][/size]

Actually, you didn't get my point at all.
Augustine taught an early form of dispensationsim too...yet can't be called a dispensationist in truth. Augustine taught one concept of Reformed theology ...but not the "Doctrines of Grace" as a theology taught by Calvinism. He cannot be called a reformationist aligned with John Calvin.

The problem with the "grace alone" doctrine of Calvinism is that Paul specifically teaches we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith (Belief) has to come before salvation (regeneration).

You have yet to show me that in believeing that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, I am ignoring the historical belief - for Paul was well before Augustine.

I see what you are saying here. In order to debate with any one a historical context should be in place. I am sure that most people can reconize the differance between "grace alone" and the doctrine of Grace.

No, I think you need to be more specific as many readers will not understand.

Indwelling is differnet then regeneration. You have contuined to make them the same. If they are the same then can the H/S indwell a non regrerated person?

How does God regenerate a person?

They are the same. The Holy Spirit regenerates us - which saves us. As I wrote earlier...
I believe regeneration means born again which is what happens when we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration - palinggenesia - recovery, new birth, renovation. The word is taken from palin which means 'again', and ginomai which means 'to become'.

Belief precedes regeneration:
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Ypu can beleive that it is consistant but the context of that passage leaves you wanting for context that is not there. Mankind is not in that passage you have added that to the passage to arrive at a conclusion the text will not support. The text is quite clear in and of it's self.

I disagree. I have to interpret verse in light of the book they are in and acording to the larger book they are in.

Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

That is what God wanted prior creation, and created man perfect, sinfree. but god knew man would fall.

Paul discusses why sin was allowed to reighn....it is to show God's great mercy.
I strongly feel that Calvinism puts God in a box that limits His mercy.

Now I wrote that I believe the Reformed position is in error in beleiving that Jesus did not die for the whole world but only for the elect (not exactly in those words). I believe He died to make salvation available to all - with kosmos including the sumtotal of the material universe and those living in it.
You wrote :

Cite please One reformed person whom says this about Jn 3:16.

John Owens:

First, If this word whosoever be distributive, then it is restrictive of the love of God to some, and not to others,to one part of the distribution, and not the other. And if it do not restrain the love of God, intending the salvation of some, then it is not distributive of the fore-mentioned object of it; and if it do restrain it, then all are not intended in the love which moved God to give his Son. Secondly, I deny that the word here is distributive of the object of Gods love, but only declarative of his end and aim in giving Christ in the pursuit of that love,to wit, that all believers might be saved. So that the sense is, God so loved his elect throughout the world, that he gave his Son with this intention, that by him believers might be saved. And this is all that is by any (besides a few worthless cavils) objected from this place to disprove our interpretation.

See here:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=277

"This was the explanation given by Frances Turretin, Reformed theologian in Geneva (1623-1687):

The love treated of in John 3:16. .. cannot be universal towards all and every one, but special towards a few... because the end of that love which God intends is the salvation of those whom He pursues with such love.. . If therefore God sent Christ for that end, that through Him the world might be saved, He must either have failed of His end, or the world must necessarily be saved in fact. But it is certain that not the whole world, but only those chosen out of the world are saved; therefore, to them properly has this love reference... "

This Reformed article denies that 'world' (kosmos) means for all men without exception. (I believe that goes against the definition of kosmos in Koine Greek.)
Denies that God loves all men, saying that He only loves the elect.

The faulty assumption here is that Christ must have died only for some or God failed because not all men have come to belief. But that is limiting God, and saying that God cannot desire our freewill choice. It is inconsistent with how He interacted with Israel.

Plus I already quoted Calvin earlier where he wrote that some were elected to salvation and others elected to dam*na*tion...double predestination.

This, plus the idea that we are regenerated before beleiving is why I am not a Calvinist (the question in the OP).

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

eldermike said:
But I said

A regenerated heart will cry out to God.....So belief is a gift, an outcome of regeneration, an act of God. Indwelling is a responce to our cry.

I know what you said...

I disagree for the reason stated.

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
[/color][/size][/size]
Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit. Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Good Day,FIC

I think we can agree that regeneration is a work of God though the H/S.

The 'work of God', in this verse, refers to the fact that the Word was made flesh and sent to die for our sins and we are to beleive. It is not saying that it is His work to make (forcibly)some to believe and leave the rest to suffer in hell..

I do not believe that I used the word Force here in this thread, you have assumed it. I have stated that the drawing is effective because it is God's action "verb", unless one is to think that the actions of God "creator" have an ablity to fall short when his "creation" is the object of his action.

With in the context of all of John chapter 6, we see that the people had followed Jesus across the the sea. They sought to find him.
Joh 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

We see here that Jesus is saying here these sought him as a result of partaking in the results of the miricles and not the miricles them selfs. Jesus then goes on to say labour not for the meat of the world, but that which the Father as sealed.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

So, they said upto him , how might we labour for that which the father has sealed?

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Then Jesus tell them it is the work of God, that you may beleive on that which the father has sealed. It is not their work, but Gods.

Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

After a long teaching about the mana from heaven and the Fathers of them who followed Jesus. They ask to be given this Bread. Jesus affirms that fact that He is that bread of life. Jesus then tells them you have seen yet you do not believe.

Well , how can that be did they not follow him, seek him across the sea ask to have the bread of life. Were they un willing to labour for the seal of the Father.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

They were not given by the father to the son.

FIC, I am not saying the the only work of God is to bring one to believe, I do agree with you on much of what you say in the other works of God " word made flesh". That is coved quite nicely in an other chapter of John, not here in chapter 6.

We do have to beleive

. No way around that.

I agree, we must beleive has has been shown here our belief is the work of the Father in that we are given to the son. The son does the will of the Father who sent the son.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

I don't see that it supports your position.

Moses held the serpent up for all the Israelites to see.

Now there is an interesting thing about this that I read in the New England Jounal of Medicine about 20 years ago. There is a disease endemic to the Sinai penninsula called, in English, Guinea Worm disease. Ancient Hebrew did not have a separate word for worm...it was the same word for snake.

What happens with this disease is that a person drinks from water with the worm larvae in it, and the larvae settle in the subcutaneous tissues. It grows there to about 3 feet long, though coiled. The area where it grows becomes painful and sore. If you try to remove the worm, it will break and the toxin inside the worm gets out and kills. The ONLY way to remove the wrom is to let it come out by itself, by holding a stick at the wound and the worm will circle up the stick and come out.
Read the account of this problem in Numbers. 'Uttermost' probably should be translated 'outermost'. They campd around a main water source. The ones who sinned probably drank from another water source that was contaminated. By holding up the staff with the snake, Moses was showing them how to deal with the 'snake' removal without dying. If they did it another way, they would have died. There was one way to salvation....they had to do it that way.

FIC, very interesting stuff from JOM. I used the translation to show that the world in it is not related to those whom are the believing type.

Joh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

This is very consistant with the prayer of the Lord in John.

Joh 17:6 I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept;

Joh 17:7 now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me, are from Thee,

Joh 17:8 because the sayings that Thou hast given to me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send me.

Joh 17:9 `I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given to me, because Thine they are,

Joh 17:10 and all mine are Thine, and Thine are mine, and I have been glorified in them;

Joh 17:11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we;

Spurgeon has done an interesting sermon on the idom of Moses raising of the serpent.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

Godschosengirl said:
then go ahead theseed [cut and past websites].

And make myself look like a donkey? No thankyou.

Great posts FIC!!! Here are some reps coming your way girl!!!

Where's the fruit of the Spirit? You two are being divisive, something Christ would not approve of.

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
I disagree. I believe regeneration means born again which is what happens when we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration - palinggenesia - recovery, new birth, renovation. The word is taken from palin which means 'again', and ginomai which means 'to become'.

Belief precedes regeneration:
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

You are right about the born again part, but the indwelling comes after regeneration. It is not regeneration

kel32 · Jun 3, 2004

Godschosengirl said:
why is it that every calvinist i talk to about this gets all upset and defensive? maybe they are trying to talk themselves into believing something the Holy Spirit is telling them is wrong....

~peace~

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

Comming Soon: "Myths and Misconceptions about Calvinism".

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

theseed said:
You are right about the born again part, but the indwelling comes after regeneration. It is not regeneration

I disagree. The indwelling occurs with the regeneration.

It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, makes us born again, etc....and he doesn't then leave.

theseed · Jun 3, 2004

FIC said:
I disagree. The indwelling occurs with the regeneration.

It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, makes us born again, etc....and he doesn't then leave.

Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that regenerates, but he does not indwell until he washes us clean. He does not want to live in a dirty vessel. See John 14:18, you will find that the Holy Spirit does convict without the indwelling.

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
I disagree. The indwelling occurs with the regeneration.

It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, makes us born again, etc....and he doesn't then leave.

Good Day, FIC

Easy question for you. Can a unregenerated person be indwelled by the H/S?

Peace to u,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

theseed said:
Comming Soon: "Myths and Misconceptions about Calvinism".

Good day, Seed

Hope all is well with you. Can I add some of my old ones build upon the Tradition of men?

Peace to u,

Bill

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, FIC

Easy question for you. Can a unregenerated person be indwelled by the H/S?

Peace to u,

Bill

The regeneration is when the 'vessel is cleaned' and then the Holy Spirit STAYS.

You make it sound as if you believe that a person is regenerated (born again), then beleives, and then later the Holy spirit indwells.

Instead....it is believe, regenerate(born again)/indwell.

So your question about indwelling an unregenerate person is moot. The person is regenerated (born again) by the Holy spirit who STAYS.

FreeinChrist · Jun 3, 2004

theseed said:
Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that regenerates, but he does not indwell until he washes us clean. He does not want to live in a dirty vessel. See John 14:18, you will find that the Holy Spirit does convict without the indwelling.

John 14:18 is not about the Holy Spirit convicting

Jhn 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;Jhn 14:17 {that is} the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.Jhn 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is talking to His disciples here - beleivers.

And 'convicting' is not 'regeneration'.

BBAS 64 · Jun 3, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
The regeneration is when the 'vessel is cleaned' and then the Holy Spirit STAYS.

You make it sound as if you believe that a person is regenerated (born again), then beleives, and then later the Holy spirit indwells.

Instead....it is believe, regenerate(born again)/indwell.

So your question about indwelling an unregenerate person is moot. The person is regenerated (born again) by the Holy spirit who STAYS.

Good Day, FIC

Is this regeneration?

Eze 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

Peace to u,

Bill

Why aren't you a Calvinist?

AKA..Godschosengirl

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