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Why aren't you a Calvinist?

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BBAS 64

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Good day, all

With in the history of great Baptists such as Pink and Spuregon, both of whom where Calvinist in their views of salvation. What gives you the most problems with that view. Have you read Spuregon's defense of the doctrine of grace?

I will say it took me some time to fully understand the doctrine of Grace, and embrace them as God's plan for his people.


For His Glory Alone!

Bill
 
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terry13

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I was going to put the subject as ARMENIANS IN OUR MIDST…but thought maybe that was a little over the top.

The advent of 5-point Calvinism into Southern Baptist churches has not met with enough study, in my opinion.

The 5 points of Calvinist thought are (as I understand them)

1. Total inability

2. Unconditional election

3. Limited atonement

4. Irresistible grace

5. Perseverance of the saints

I must admit immediately, however, that God has placed in my heart – after years of study – the conviction that neither Calvinism nor Armenianism (I don’t think that is a word but I love isms) is totally correct. I believe that the truth lays somewhere in the middle.

1. Total Inability

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that humans are totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. The theory states very emphatically that they cannot repent or believe the Gospel. The teaching is that people cannot believe until he is born again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Humans do not have a free will by which they are able to come to Christ for salvation.

I find the Bible stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God hath granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.

Concerning the statement that man cannot believe the Gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, look at the following scripture- John 1:12, 3:15, 16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 7:39, 12:36, and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The full Calvinist in my opinion would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ thou shalt believe.”

2. Unconditional Election

The teaching of 5-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). However, this election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2 and Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will show the exceeding riches of His grace (Eph. 2:7)

Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17 the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "Whosoever will."

3. Limited Atonement

Calvinist theology states that Christ died on the Cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the non-elect is not reasonable. Since, according to absolute Calvinism, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore the Atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only.

If one accepts Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes. In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation not only for our sins but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9 it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6 the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the Gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I believe that the Atonement of Christ is not limited.

4. Irresistible grace

Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part.

The Word of God teaches that the Grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men, and yet all do not come; that is proof enough that men do resist the Grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the Grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they would not (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51).

5. Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with the last point in the Calvinist system that those whom are saved will persevere to the end and will not depart from the faith. The one who is truly born again is eternally secure in Christ and is never in danger of losing his/her salvation.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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Maybe we should post up the doctines of the baptist churches. i wonder of one of the mods would sticky them at the top. We could then compare the 2 differant doctrines that way. I had posted a doctrinal statment of the KJV only churchs. I think each baptist church should post up thier doctrinal statements to so everyone understands what the differances are.
As for NOT being a calvinist........the doctrine goes against the baptist doctrine......so I could not call myself one. However our church dose think spurgoen was a great preacher!
GEL
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, GEL

I totally understand what yoy mean, my church does hold a non Calvinist view as far as Salvation goes. Would you think that you churches doctrine are diffenet from that of Spurgeon or Pink?

I do not see if one holds to the doctrines of Grace as being out side the realm of historic Baptist thought, may be with in the last 2 centuries that may be true.

Have you read Spurgeon defence? What do you think?

I have asked my pastor to read it, so that we can discuss it in light of his misunderstanding of what Calvinism is to the Baptist Faith.

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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FreeinChrist

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I like Spurgeon. However, I have a problem with a few points of Calvinism.

1. Total depravity of man. Yes, man is separated from God and needs a Saviour, and is born in original sin. But I beleive a man MUST choose to believe and follow, to pick up the cross.
One Calvinist told me that man has to be changed in order to beleive, so no man actually comes to belief without this change by God first which included the indwelling of the Spirit.
I believe that God draws us, but we do have to choose. I don't beleive we receive the Holy Spirit until we have believed and asked for forgiveness.


2. Unconditional election - as I see it, God wants all of mankind to come to Him. The plan of salvation was for all mankind...but man must accept the gift. Must beleive.
I do believe that God knows all and knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not...but the plan was still for mankind.

3. Limited atonement - Christ died and rose again to make salvation available to the whole world. A person must ask for the gift of salvation. I don't believe it is correct to say that Christ died only for the elect.

4. Irresistible grace - I didn't resist. Those who come to faith did not resist. But I know some folks who heard the word of God and resisted till their deaths.

5. Preservation of the saints - I agree with this.
 
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theseed

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Actually, Baptist doctine reeks of Calvinism.

Here are 3 sites to prove it.

http://www.founders.org/library/reis1/reis.html

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=14051

And of course, The Baptist Faith and Message

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/5.html

Many famous Baptists, such as Spurgeon were Calvinist.
 
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theseed

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So basically, you are a one point Calvinist?
 
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Bulldog

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Irresistible grace - I didn't resist. Those who come to faith did not resist. But I know some folks who heard the word of God and resisted till their deaths.

Just to clarify, Calvinists do not believe that this drawing of grace is equated to hearing the Word of God or for that matter anything men do. It is an act of God.
 
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Bro. Gabriel

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I'm a student at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and we're all 5-point Calvinists here, faculty and students. You can't avoid the truth just because it doesn't "tickle your ears" and make you feel all warm and gooey inside. God defines who we are, we don't define who God is or how He should accomplish salvation in us. How arrogant and heretical of us to stray away from foundational Biblical truths just because it goes against our culture's acceptance.
 
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Bro. Gabriel

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Well that's all fine and dandy. Now, find some Biblical proof to support your claims and we can move on. I could show you at LEAST 30 verses that contradict explicitly what you are claiming here, however. Not only from the mouth of Jesus, but from Paul.


Once again, you are bringing the ever-present "I" into the equation. This is what YOU believe because it sounds logical to human ears and makes us feel good inside. Why wouldn't a loving God want EVERYONE to be saved? See! Makes sense! Wrong. That is not what the Bible says. Multiple times. God has a remnant, chosen by Grace (Romans 11) that are chosen before the foundation of the world for salvation. Jews and Gentiles.

3. Limited atonement - Christ died and rose again to make salvation available to the whole world. A person must ask for the gift of salvation. I don't believe it is correct to say that Christ died only for the elect.

If you understand this doctrine, you know that it means that the Atonement is effective for those that receive it. Christ died for "whosoever believes in Him" just as John 3:16 says. There are dozens of NT verses that explain the atonement is for a selected group of people who are to be set apart and holy for Christ.

4. Irresistible grace - I didn't resist. Those who come to faith did not resist. But I know some folks who heard the word of God and resisted till their deaths.

Again, you simply don't know what this means. You can't just look at the 5 points at surface value, with somewhat mis-leading titles and claim you either do or don't believe in them. God's Grace is a REMOVAL of resistance. If someone resists it's because they didn't receive God's Grace!

5. Preservation of the saints - I agree with this.

There's less blatant textual evidence to support this one point of the 5 and this is the only one you believe? *sigh*

I am begging my fellow Baptists to study Theology, study your roots, and don't fall captive of modern resurgences of classic heresies that date back to the beginning of the Christian Church!
 
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Lynn73

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I agree totally that the truth can't be avoided just because we don't like it. Some of us just don't happen to believe that Calvinism is the truth and don't believe the Bible supports it. We're not trying to avoid the truth or look for something that tickles our ears.

If you understand this doctrine, you know that it means that the Atonement is effective for those that receive it. Christ died for "whosoever believes in Him" just as John 3:16 says.

John 3:16 doesn't say that Christ died for whosoever believes in Him. It says that God so loved the world (everyone) that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. You're turning words around and making it say somethig that it doesn't.

2Pe 3:9 -The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Which is it? God is either not willing for anyone to perish and sent Jesus to die for EVERYONE so that salvation is open to all who will receive it OR He doesn't care about people perishing and deliberately predestines certain people to hell. If He's not willing that any perish and wants all to come to repentence, that certainly seems to put the Scriptures at odds with doctrine that says Jesus only died for a certain select group of people and the others are destined for hell and that's it.
 
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theseed

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Bro. Gabriel said:
You can't avoid the truth just because it doesn't "tickle your ears"

I agree. If I had it my way, God would save everbody. It is a hard fact to swallow, that God only pardons some criminals. But I can't escape the truth. I looked for another way, and found none.
 
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theseed

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Nope, it fits quite perfectly. The verse clearly says he only saves believers--not the whole word.
 
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theseed

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theseed said:
Nope, it fits quite perfectly. The verse clearly says he only saves believers--not the whole word.
And the rest of John 3 is line with Calvinism too. It says that nobody comes into the light because thier deeds are evil, but if they do--it is because what he does is a work of God (John 3.18-21).

This is in line with John 1.5, and 18. The light does not understand darkness. So too, doe sinners not understand Christ--but God the Father reveals/explains him.
 
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Lynn73

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Well, I agree to disagree. John 3:16 doesn't say to me what it appears to say to you. It says God loved the whole world, that includes everyone. Of course, only believers are saved. But the way is open for everyone to believe if they choose, not just a certain group. "Whosoever believeth." If God isn't willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence as I clearly showed in my post above, then He's defeating His own desires by preselecting certain people to hell and not leaving the way open to everyone to come if they choose. But I know we're not going to change each others' minds on it we can disagree amicably and go on.
 
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Mary_Magdalene

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Bro. Gabriel said:
I'm wondering if the people objecting to Calvinism in this thread are Southern Baptists? If so, you go against the very teaching of the SBC's doctrine and foundations. Even the BF&M places Regeneration before Repentance...


who cares? i go to a southern baptist church and think calvinism is wrong doctrine and a hinderance to Gods kingdom. im not going to change my view of the truth just because my "church" disagrees.
 
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Mary_Magdalene

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Amen!
 
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