Why are you here?

Dave RP · Oct 4, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
Actually, I think the people drifted away from God. Once Christianity became "legal", I think the number of casual Christians increased. And instead of wondering why they lost their power of the Holy Spirit, they chose to belief that it was no longer available.

Prosperity seems to weaken people over time. The truth is, we could really use some genuinely holy people and prophets right around now. But like all institutions, those in power like to keep things the way they are and become so enamored with power that it becomes more important than their original cause.

But yes, the biggest enemy of Christianity right now is Christians. Though there are people out there doing the right thing, they are grossly outnumbered by those who are more about the tradition and community of the church than actually worshiping and representing God.

And I can only judge others but so much because I am not what I should be either. These are truly soul searching days for earnest believers, but some of us will have to step up and be willing to give up all to properly represent our faith.

I actually think it's education and healthcare that have made people drift away from Christianity and religion in general. When you start to educate the entire public about science, evolution, the vastness of space and the natural forces at work people are bound to question how a thing called god can exist that can merely think things into existence. That's before you get into the whole thing of heaven, hell, judgement, Satan, angels and all the paraphernalia of religion, which will seem to many to be just based on superstition. Then when mankind's life expectancy is growing and medical technology can do so much for so many, people no longer have the fear of life being ugly, brutal and short, there is less need for the crutch of the promise of eternal life to sustain you through a terrible life on this planet.

In my opinion, those are the main reasons for Christianity's decline.

Dave RP · Oct 4, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
Too many things to respond to in one post. One interesting thing they did find in Egypt though. It was not really a thing, but rather a behavior. Apparently, when they did not like someone, they would erase them out of the records. Like they literally "sand blasted" a monotheistic king from the records, off for the stones.

In regard to creation, if you read it carefully it is not so different than the evolution theory as far as sequencing goes. plants, then sea creatures, then birds, then beasts, then man. I personally think every thing evolved (how quickly i do not know) except for man. Is it so hard to believe a God could make a man out of dirt when we can make a robot out of metal, plastic, and silicon?

Sodom and Gomorah. Could we not level a city with a bomb?
Tower of Babel, they are currently working on ways to read minds with tech. Would it be so hard to mix up languages?

Job, well that one I thought was an allegory, but I leave it alone.

Jonah: We have submarines now that can stay under water for at least 6 months.

What's my point? Basically, the more we advance, the less impossible the miraculous should be to us, but it seems to have the opposite affect.

I'm not sure what you mean by more miraculous in relation to Jesus. However, what you consider irrational to accept, could be said of any number things that now exist but did not before. If you told someone from 200 years ago you could hold the name of every person on the planet in a box that fits in one hand, they would think you were ridiculous.

Someone today might think it is ridiculous that God could give dreams, or give messages to people, but today they are already working on transmitting messages back and forth between people using brain waves.

A famous quote: "A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God." Did you know they are working on tech that can speed up the brain and make an 8 hour period seem like 1000 years to the person experiencing it? Not perfected yet, but wow!

So as the world shares information with itself, much like Babel, we are pioneering quickly into an age where nothing seems impossible.

"And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

Sorry, got long winded. Just amazing times that we live in. XD

I would pick up on a couple of points, if that's OK.

Firstly evolution. So god made evolution, then all creatures evolved but god made man? That's not logical. Did god make all the predecessors to man, Homo Hablis, Homo Erectus, Homo Neanderthal for example, then just suddenly stop and "make" Homo Sapien?

The sequence of creation in the Bible is just plain wrong, God made light BEFORE he made the sun which is a pretty good trick even for God.

Sodom and Gomorrah were bombed????? Is god into genocide now - oh wait, yes he is, hence the flood story which again is not believable.

Jonah in a submarine - really?

The point I am making is that the bible is so full of inconsistencies and blatant untruths that it is impossible to believe in it as the word of god, unless you also believe that god is fallible, which is contradictory.

akaDaScribe · Oct 5, 2018

Dave RP said:
I would pick up on a couple of points, if that's OK.

Firstly evolution. So god made evolution, then all creatures evolved but god made man? That's not logical. Did god make all the predecessors to man, Homo Hablis, Homo Erectus, Homo Neanderthal for example, then just suddenly stop and "make" Homo Sapien?

The sequence of creation in the Bible is just plain wrong, God made light BEFORE he made the sun which is a pretty good trick even for God.

Sodom and Gomorrah were bombed????? Is god into genocide now - oh wait, yes he is, hence the flood story which again is not believable.

Jonah in a submarine - really?

The point I am making is that the bible is so full of inconsistencies and blatant untruths that it is impossible to believe in it as the word of god, unless you also believe that god is fallible, which is contradictory.

If you go back and read genesis you will notice that everything came forth and multiplied. In relation to the order, it went plants, sea creatures, then birds, then land creatures. But man was made differently. Maybe you choose to recognize that we are more and different than any other creature on this planet or maybe you don't. Though it seems strange to me that there are no other beings like us if it was such a natural occurrence. In relation to the light, I'm not sure why you think it doesn't make sense to you that some kind of energy would have been required to jumpstart life.

In relation to Sodom and Jonah, I was not saying that Jonah was in a sub or that jets bombed Sodom. I was saying that the more we can do, the less inconceivable it should be to us that God can do these things.

In relation to God being "into" genocide, I guess you could say that. If there was a city with a plague that could infect the whole world, we wouldn't quarantine those people or even take them out if needed, right? But as far as God being quite comfortable with doing what He thinks needs to be done, you will get no argument from me on that point. Anyone who thinks he somehow changed because of the New Testament needs to look at the last book in the New Testament.

At some point, you have to realize that you believe in science. I believe in God and recognize that science is part of the order of things. Science believes that something simply appeared and happened to have a profoundly unique ability to orchestrate everything that is by chance. I could go on and on about how unreasonable it sounds to me to assume everything came from a pin point that simply appeared without a cause. The truth is, that opinion requires an incredible amount of belief.

akaDaScribe · Oct 5, 2018

Dave RP said:
I actually think it's education and healthcare that have made people drift away from Christianity and religion in general. When you start to educate the entire public about science, evolution, the vastness of space and the natural forces at work people are bound to question how a thing called god can exist that can merely think things into existence. That's before you get into the whole thing of heaven, hell, judgement, Satan, angels and all the paraphernalia of religion, which will seem to many to be just based on superstition. Then when mankind's life expectancy is growing and medical technology can do so much for so many, people no longer have the fear of life being ugly, brutal and short, there is less need for the crutch of the promise of eternal life to sustain you through a terrible life on this planet.

In my opinion, those are the main reasons for Christianity's decline.

Well, I would agree with you that it has in-part due to the advancement of science and education. When you have public school systems constantly pounding children with a secular world view, mocking and shaming those who disagree, and undermining parents, it definitely has an impact on how they think as adults. I still have to blame us, the Christians, for this because we were too busy doing other things to do anything about it.

Dave RP · Oct 6, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
If you go back and read genesis you will notice that everything came forth and multiplied. In relation to the order, it went plants, sea creatures, then birds, then land creatures. But man was made differently. Maybe you choose to recognize that we are more and different than any other creature on this planet or maybe you don't. Though it seems strange to me that there are no other beings like us if it was such a natural occurrence. In relation to the light, I'm not sure why you think it doesn't make sense to you that some kind of energy would have been required to jumpstart life.

In relation to Sodom and Jonah, I was not saying that Jonah was in a sub or that jets bombed Sodom. I was saying that the more we can do, the less inconceivable it should be to us that God can do these things.

In relation to God being "into" genocide, I guess you could say that. If there was a city with a plague that could infect the whole world, we wouldn't quarantine those people or even take them out if needed, right? But as far as God being quite comfortable with doing what He thinks needs to be done, you will get no argument from me on that point. Anyone who thinks he somehow changed because of the New Testament needs to look at the last book in the New Testament.

At some point, you have to realize that you believe in science. I believe in God and recognize that science is part of the order of things. Science believes that something simply appeared and happened to have a profoundly unique ability to orchestrate everything that is by chance. I could go on and on about how unreasonable it sounds to me to assume everything came from a pin point that simply appeared without a cause. The truth is, that opinion requires an incredible amount of belief.

There were many creatures very like us in the distant past, Neanderthal Man being the most recent and closest to us. A humanoid who lived for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years but was a separate species.

Also the order of creation is all wrong, science says it started in the oceans, not on land. Genesis is mythology just like the creation myths of hundreds of other religions.

Dave RP · Oct 6, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
If you go back and read genesis you will notice that everything came forth and multiplied. In relation to the order, it went plants, sea creatures, then birds, then land creatures. But man was made differently. Maybe you choose to recognize that we are more and different than any other creature on this planet or maybe you don't. Though it seems strange to me that there are no other beings like us if it was such a natural occurrence. In relation to the light, I'm not sure why you think it doesn't make sense to you that some kind of energy would have been required to jumpstart life.

In relation to Sodom and Jonah, I was not saying that Jonah was in a sub or that jets bombed Sodom. I was saying that the more we can do, the less inconceivable it should be to us that God can do these things.

In relation to God being "into" genocide, I guess you could say that. If there was a city with a plague that could infect the whole world, we wouldn't quarantine those people or even take them out if needed, right? But as far as God being quite comfortable with doing what He thinks needs to be done, you will get no argument from me on that point. Anyone who thinks he somehow changed because of the New Testament needs to look at the last book in the New Testament.

At some point, you have to realize that you believe in science. I believe in God and recognize that science is part of the order of things. Science believes that something simply appeared and happened to have a profoundly unique ability to orchestrate everything that is by chance. I could go on and on about how unreasonable it sounds to me to assume everything came from a pin point that simply appeared without a cause. The truth is, that opinion requires an incredible amount of belief.

Additionally, regarding the origins of the universe I have no idea how it all started, there are various theories including that the universe has also existed in different forms. All theists can say to anything unexplained is - oh that was god. Where did god come from - oh he’s always existed...... it’s a very big cop out to say god did it, he’s always existed - end of story!

Maybe one day we’ll establish scientifically where and how the universe worked, maybe not but god can never be scientifically investigated, that’s all faith.

essentialsaltes · Oct 8, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
I know some people are here to forward their political agendas. Beyond that, I am just wondering why non-Christians join a Christian forum. Is it to troll? Is it to pull people closer to your world view? Are you looking for answers? Do you enjoy debating? Do you enjoy hearing different perspectives?

A lot of different reasons. Originally, I was mostly involved in creation/evolution topics, but I've broadened out with interests in ethics/morality and politics. It's also particularly interesting to see the people that agree with me on evolution but disagree with me on politics (and vice versa).

I come to see news stories that I might not have seen otherwise, hear opinions I might not have otherwise heard.

I get to keep an eye on what the 'evangelical Trump voter' has on his mind.

I try to encourage people to use better 'information hygiene', to avoid fake news.

Another reason is so I can dispel myths and prejudices about atheists that are held by some Christians who haven't had much experience with atheists (that they know of).

Christian: Atheists have horns on their heads!
me: We do not!
Christian: well, maybe atheists have only one horn on their heads
me: Victory!

DogmaHunter · Oct 9, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
Actually, I think the people drifted away from God. Once Christianity became "legal", I think the number of casual Christians increased. And instead of wondering why they lost their power of the Holy Spirit, they chose to belief that it was no longer available.

Prosperity seems to weaken people over time. The truth is, we could really use some genuinely holy people and prophets right around now. But like all institutions, those in power like to keep things the way they are and become so enamored with power that it becomes more important than their original cause.

But yes, the biggest enemy of Christianity right now is Christians. Though there are people out there doing the right thing, they are grossly outnumbered by those who are more about the tradition and community of the church than actually worshiping and representing God.

And I can only judge others but so much because I am not what I should be either. These are truly soul searching days for earnest believers, but some of us will have to step up and be willing to give up all to properly represent our faith.

Could you outline in what ways christian's behaviour would/should change in your opinion, so that they once again "worship and represent God"?
In practical terms I mean. What would be the practical implications of such a change, if all christians overnight started doing that?

DogmaHunter · Oct 9, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
If you go back and read genesis you will notice that everything came forth and multiplied. In relation to the order, it went plants, sea creatures, then birds, then land creatures

Wrong order. First land creatures, then birds.

But man was made differently. Maybe you choose to recognize that we are more and different than any other creature on this planet or maybe you don't. Though it seems strange to me that there are no other beings like us if it was such a natural occurrence.

Except that there were. Most of them are extinct: neaderthalis, rudolfensis, homo erectus,...

Then there's also the other great apes. We are a lot more alike to them then evolution deniers care to admit.

In relation to the light, I'm not sure why you think it doesn't make sense to you that some kind of energy would have been required to jumpstart life.

Light requires a light source. An object that "shines" (ie: emmits photons)

In relation to Sodom and Jonah, I was not saying that Jonah was in a sub or that jets bombed Sodom. I was saying that the more we can do, the less inconceivable it should be to us that God can do these things.

None of what we can do require violations and/or suspensions of the laws of physics. No amount of technology can render violations/suspensions of the laws of physics as "conceivable". Furthermore, just because something is conceivable, doesn't mean it's true or accurate.

At some point, you have to realize that you believe in science.

Science is not something to "believe in".
Sciens is just a method of gathering knowledge about the world around us. A method, with an impeccable track record of success. A method, that knows no rival in the quest for knowledge.

[qutoe]I believe in God and recognize that science is part of the order of things. Science believes that something simply appeared and happened to have a profoundly unique ability to orchestrate everything that is by chance.[/quote]

Science doesn't "believe" things either. And most certainly not what you just wrote.

I could go on and on about how unreasonable it sounds to me to assume everything came from a pin point that simply appeared without a cause.

I'm sure that before Einstein, people could go on and on about how unreasonable it sounds that time isn't a constant and that the "flow of time" is relative to the observer and affected by the speed of the observed.

I'm sure that before quantum mechanics, people could go on and on about how unreasonable is sounds that an object could be observed "here", while being detected "there", yet that is exactly what particles can do.

Our "common sense" didn't evolve to understand quantum mechanics, the conditions present in the early universe, what happens to objects with mass as they approach light speeds,....

No. Our "common sense" evolved to help us not being eaten by dangerous predators on the african plains.

The truth is, that opinion requires an incredible amount of belief.

Not if it is supported by all the evidence.....

See, that's what science is about. Not mere belief. But evidence.

DogmaHunter · Oct 9, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
Well, I would agree with you that it has in-part due to the advancement of science and education. When you have public school systems constantly pounding children with a secular world view, mocking and shaming those who disagree, and undermining parents, it definitely has an impact on how they think as adults. I still have to blame us, the Christians, for this because we were too busy doing other things to do anything about it.

What would you say, has to be done about it?

Why are you here?

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