Why are you here?

Dave RP said:

I come on here because I am intrigued by religious faith.

My partner is a committed Christian, she says she has a personal relationship with God, she says she feels his presence when she's in church. She reads the bible every day, goes to a house group etc. I respect her faith, I believe she is sincere but I just don't get it.

I go to church with her and listen to the talks and for me they are just a series of stories, some more believable than others and some so ludicrous as to be beyond belief, but for her it's all ok as it's in the Bible.

So I thought I'd join a Christian forum to see if there is any logical arguments or anything else I am missing which would make me understand how any rational human being can believe all that Christianity tells them.

I do find the discussions interesting, but there has been nothing (yet?) to make me think that the Bible is anything more than fiction.

I have also asked occasionally on here for clarification of some issues in the Christian church, or subjects I have heard in her church - does God have a plan for everyone, why doesn't god make himself known to non believers, is the devil real, did Adam and Eve exist, where is hell, what are angels and where do they hang around - those type of questions and the answers have often been brilliantly contradictory.

Click to expand...

I could see why someone might think parts of the Bible are untrue based on what they believe is possible, but I certainly wouldn't call it fiction. They use all of those exhaustive names and places listed and line them up with history.

I know different people respond to things differently. I'll bet you would grow to increasingly respect the Bible if you just kept reading it and didn't feel compelled to define what you think about it. Or in other words, some people would be huge fans of the Bible if they weren't being told it's a requirement.

Theo102 said:

To share my perspective, to learn, and to find holes in my argument.

Click to expand...

What does it mean to be a rationalist?

MehGuy said:

I had a very psychologically troubling time losing my faith, and I can't stomach the idea of pushing any theist into that direction. Although I do discuss my atheism sometimes, and I will try to correct people who have erroneous ideas about atheists.

Click to expand...

Did you figure out why?

MehGuy said:

Pretty much, but that's a long and probably for most very disturbing story.

Click to expand...

Well, now I'm really interested in hearing it.
But I won't burden you with it. If you ever want to tell your story though, I'll definitely read it.

Theo102 said:

I interpret it to means that you apply a discipline to filter ideas before you believe to them to be true, and that you are prepared to discard your beliefs if new information comes along that tends to falsify them. It involves using Occam's Razor & applying specific heuristics when interpreting the world.

Click to expand...

I had to look up some of those words. lol
Sounds like you are quite pragmatic.

Dave RP said:

Some stories in the bible are just, to me, obvious fiction. Amongst the most obviously (in my opinion) clearly not literally true are many in the Old Testament such as the creation story, Adam and Eve, the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah, Tower of Babel, Job, Jonah and the fish...... I could go on but you understand my point. If all those tales are just legendary, then the rest of the bible must be on the same basis. That doesn’t mean there aren’t some very relevant or important principles in the bible, but as i say, I do not see how it could possibly be divinely inspired or the “word of god”.

There are a large number of historical inaccuracies in the bible as well, for example there is no historical evidence that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt.

The New Testament has the fundamental problem of being written decades after the events it’s supoosed to have witnessed, and is written to justify the story it is telling. For example, the story of Jesus resurrection grows more spectacular in the later books, and for me is simply beyond rational belief.

I do however respect the bible as a very influential book, arguably the most influential book ever written, but that doesn’t make it anything more than just a book.

Click to expand...

Too many things to respond to in one post. One interesting thing they did find in Egypt though. It was not really a thing, but rather a behavior. Apparently, when they did not like someone, they would erase them out of the records. Like they literally "sand blasted" a monotheistic king from the records, off for the stones.

In regard to creation, if you read it carefully it is not so different than the evolution theory as far as sequencing goes. plants, then sea creatures, then birds, then beasts, then man. I personally think every thing evolved (how quickly i do not know) except for man. Is it so hard to believe a God could make a man out of dirt when we can make a robot out of metal, plastic, and silicon?

Sodom and Gomorah. Could we not level a city with a bomb?
Tower of Babel, they are currently working on ways to read minds with tech. Would it be so hard to mix up languages?

Job, well that one I thought was an allegory, but I leave it alone.

Jonah: We have submarines now that can stay under water for at least 6 months.

What's my point? Basically, the more we advance, the less impossible the miraculous should be to us, but it seems to have the opposite affect.

I'm not sure what you mean by more miraculous in relation to Jesus. However, what you consider irrational to accept, could be said of any number things that now exist but did not before. If you told someone from 200 years ago you could hold the name of every person on the planet in a box that fits in one hand, they would think you were ridiculous.

Someone today might think it is ridiculous that God could give dreams, or give messages to people, but today they are already working on transmitting messages back and forth between people using brain waves.

A famous quote: "A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God." Did you know they are working on tech that can speed up the brain and make an 8 hour period seem like 1000 years to the person experiencing it? Not perfected yet, but wow!

So as the world shares information with itself, much like Babel, we are pioneering quickly into an age where nothing seems impossible.

"And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

Sorry, got long winded. Just amazing times that we live in. XD

Theo102 said:

Pragmatic isn't a word that I would use to describe it, certainly not by the world's standards. It involves being detached from popular opinion.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I think I misunderstood your position. So are you saying you attempt to remain as objective as possible regardless of the topic you are looking at?

Nihilist Virus said:

Why isn't Christianity immune? God struck early Christians dead in the book of Acts merely for hoarding wealth. Now pretty much anything goes. I don't understand that. Seems like he abandoned the church, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

Actually, I think the people drifted away from God. Once Christianity became "legal", I think the number of casual Christians increased. And instead of wondering why they lost their power of the Holy Spirit, they chose to belief that it was no longer available.

Prosperity seems to weaken people over time. The truth is, we could really use some genuinely holy people and prophets right around now. But like all institutions, those in power like to keep things the way they are and become so enamored with power that it becomes more important than their original cause.

But yes, the biggest enemy of Christianity right now is Christians. Though there are people out there doing the right thing, they are grossly outnumbered by those who are more about the tradition and community of the church than actually worshiping and representing God.

And I can only judge others but so much because I am not what I should be either. These are truly soul searching days for earnest believers, but some of us will have to step up and be willing to give up all to properly represent our faith.