Why are we creating less jobs for people and not more? Universal Basic Income?

Hvizsgyak · Aug 22, 2022

This one will get me in alot of trouble with posters to this forum but I am dumbfounded as to why anybody is pushing for Universal Basic Income. Is this where capitalism is taking us? As Christians we know that we will need to work everyday (except Sundays and possibly Saturdays (of course, there are always the home choirs)). And work makes people happy alot of times (except when your boss is a micro-managing slave driver). They feel a sense of accomplishment when they do meaningful work and feel like they are contributing to helping out others. I'm sure there are some out there who disagree with me and that is ok with me; I'm no expert in work studies.

My question to those who support Capitalism (the way we have it in America today): why are we trying to do away with millions of jobs for the sake of saving money (by being more efficient?) and then turn around to pay those workers to just stay home? Sure they could take a meaningful hobby like bird watching, knitting, painting, day traders, or my favorite amateur archeologist but ...

We need an economic system that pays ALL workers a living wage (or more) and we need to get rid of some of this automation and go back to real workers manning those jobs. Universal Basic Income is an idiotic solution to helping out the working person.

The YouTube video I provided I found informative and interesting BUT I have no idea whether this lady is a decent person to take advice from. Also, sorry about her scantly dress, she usually dresses more conservatively.

Maria Billingsley · Aug 22, 2022

Hvizsgyak said:
This one will get me in alot of trouble with posters to this forum but I am dumbfounded as to why anybody is pushing for Universal Basic Income. Is this where capitalism is taking us? As Christians we know that we will need to work everyday (except Sundays and possibly Saturdays (of course, there are always the home choirs)). And work makes people happy alot of times (except when your boss is a micro-managing slave driver). They feel a sense of accomplishment when they do meaningful work and feel like they are contributing to helping out others. I'm sure there are some out there who disagree with me and that is ok with me; I'm no expert in work studies.

My question to those who support Capitalism (the way we have it in America today): why are we trying to do away with millions of jobs for the sake of saving money (by being more efficient?) and then turn around to pay those workers to just stay home? Sure they could take a meaningful hobby like bird watching, knitting, painting, day traders, or my favorite amateur archeologist but ...

We need an economic system that pays ALL workers a living wage (or more) and we need to get rid of some of this automation and go back to real workers manning those jobs. Universal Basic Income is an idiotic solution to helping out the working person.

The YouTube video I provided I found informative and interesting BUT I have no idea whether this lady is a decent person to take advice from. Also, sorry about her scantly dress, she usually dresses more conservatively.

One must take into account those who are below the poverty line. This is "supplemental" income. For example seniors. This could make all the differece in their quality of life. They pay into Social Security all their working life yet only get a small amount back over a short time period. Its their money to start with. I think it's a great idea especially here in California.

Hvizsgyak · Aug 22, 2022

Maria Billingsley said:
One must take into account those who are below the poverty line. This is "supplemental" income. For example seniors. This could make all the differece in their quality of life. They pay into Social Security all their working life yet only get a small amount back over a short time period. Its their money to start with. I think it's a great idea especially here in California.

I can see where this beneficial for people who are retired but Universal Basic Income (I believe) is going to be used for normal working people who jobs will be replaced by automation.

Larniavc · Aug 22, 2022

Hvizsgyak said:
We need an economic system that pays ALL workers a living wage (or more) and we need to get rid of some of this automation and go back to real workers manning those jobs. Universal Basic Income is an idiotic solution to helping out the working person.

The problem is that technology marches on and more and more jobs are being taken away from workers by corporations. This concentrates the wealth in the hands of those in big business.

So if there was a UBI then the most well off would contribute more and the jobs that need to be done by people would have to pay at least as much as the UBI to make them attractive enough for people to want to do them. So there’s you minimum wage forced on to the business sector (by the invisible hand of the market).

There’s a bit of research out there and some of it (if I recall) says that when UBI has been trialled people reducing their hours was mostly limited to mums (who could spend more time with the kids at home) or teens (who could then devote more time to studies).

So as far as I can see the only people who would lose out are the corporations. Businesses that were not paying a living wage would suffer but I don’t see that as a problem as they are parasites on society.

Ultimately this would lead to less wealth inequality and fewer extremely poor people because there would be more of the pie for everyone.

I reckon Jesus would have liked looking after the poor and not the corporations.

Handmaid for Jesus · Aug 22, 2022

Larnievc said:
I reckon Jesus would have liked looking after the poor and not the corporations.

Desk trauma · Aug 22, 2022

Hvizsgyak said:
We need an economic system that pays ALL workers a living wage (or more) and we need to get rid of some of this automation and go back to real workers manning those jobs.

That’s not going to happen.

dqhall · Aug 22, 2022

Hvizsgyak said:
This one will get me in alot of trouble with posters to this forum but I am dumbfounded as to why anybody is pushing for Universal Basic Income. Is this where capitalism is taking us? As Christians we know that we will need to work everyday (except Sundays and possibly Saturdays (of course, there are always the home choirs)). And work makes people happy alot of times (except when your boss is a micro-managing slave driver). They feel a sense of accomplishment when they do meaningful work and feel like they are contributing to helping out others. I'm sure there are some out there who disagree with me and that is ok with me; I'm no expert in work studies.

My question to those who support Capitalism (the way we have it in America today): why are we trying to do away with millions of jobs for the sake of saving money (by being more efficient?) and then turn around to pay those workers to just stay home? Sure they could take a meaningful hobby like bird watching, knitting, painting, day traders, or my favorite amateur archeologist but ...

We need an economic system that pays ALL workers a living wage (or more) and we need to get rid of some of this automation and go back to real workers manning those jobs. Universal Basic Income is an idiotic solution to helping out the working person.

The YouTube video I provided I found informative and interesting BUT I have no idea whether this lady is a decent person to take advice from. Also, sorry about her scantly dress, she usually dresses more conservatively.

Robots have not filled many positions. I went to get my oil changed. There was a Help Wanted sign up. Paying them not to fix cars, but paying them to do nothing may cause the price of everything to rise. This happened as workers stayed home to watch TV or read on the Internet. Employers needed to pay more to get people interested in working and for the workers to have enough to pay for food, rent, transportation, etc.

Desk trauma · Aug 22, 2022

dqhall said:
Robots have not filled many positions.

Hence why we still have people mining coal with pick and shovel or hand welding automobile frames.

dqhall · Aug 22, 2022

Desk trauma said:
Hence why we still have people mining coal with pick and shovel or hand welding automobile frames.

BHP has autonomous self driving dump trucks at one of its Australian iron mines.

Truck drivers are getting paid more than ever:
25 High-Paying In-Demand Jobs

Desk trauma · Aug 22, 2022

dqhall said:
BHP has autonomous self driving dump trucks at one of its Australian iron mines.

Truck drivers are getting paid more than ever:
25 High-Paying In-Demand Jobs

At the mine that made them redundant?

Isilwen · Aug 22, 2022

Hvizsgyak said:
And work makes people happy alot of times (except when your boss is a micro-managing slave driver).

Wish it was a micro-managing slave driver. Nope. Got a co-worker that makes my life miserable each and every day because she can. It's not just me, but everyone at work. She is insubordinate, she doesn't do her job right and she puts donors at risk because she isn't doing her job right. We have taken it to HR, we have taken it to our regional manager and our center manager, and nothing is being done. They just won't fire her.

She even goes as far as dictating how I do my job and when I can leave even if it is my off-time and she is not a manager or anything. We are equals in rank.

Tired of it! She even claims to be a Christian, but does not act like one in the least.

Handmaid for Jesus · Aug 22, 2022

Isilwen said:
Wish it was a micro-managing slave driver. Nope. Got a co-worker that makes my life miserable each and every day because she can. It's not just me, but everyone at work. She is insubordinate, she doesn't do her job right and she puts donors at risk because she isn't doing her job right. We have taken it to HR, we have taken it to our regional manager and our center manager, and nothing is being done. They just won't fire her.

She even goes as far as dictating how I do my job and when I can leave even if it is my off-time and she is not a manager or anything. We are equals in rank.

Tired of it! She even claims to be a Christian, but does not act like one in the least.

Pray hard for her. That will take care of her.
Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Isilwen · Aug 22, 2022

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Pray hard for her. That will take care of her.
Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

I have been, since October when I trained with her.

I actually did to her as she did to me this past Saturday with the blessings of the assistant manager. There was a physical left to do and it was my off time. Normally I stay and take it. This time I didn't since she has done the same thing to me repeatedly. She literally told the assistant manager that I will have to take it even if it is his off time. So I left and left the physical for her to do.

If she confronts me, I will just repeat what Jesus said, do unto others as you would have done unto you and remind her that what I did, she has done many times to me.

Skye1300 · Aug 22, 2022

Wow. It may look and sound good and shiny on the outside, because they have to dress it up and make it look good for people to accept it. But people almost went nuts during the lockdown when everyone was forced to stay home. So what are people going to do when everyone is home and no one is working? More time for people to drink and get drunk and pick fights, more time for people to get into trouble. Work keeps people busy. UBI won't stop crime because people don't commit crimes because of lack of money. With no one working, unfortunately people will have more time to get into trouble.
Also anyone who gives you free money is going to eventually want to control you. They will get you used to it and where you depend on it and once people don't know how to work anymore, then will come the many strings and I'm sure one of them will be a chip in your brain/mark of the beast. And what about college? If everything is automated and done by machines will people have degrees anymore? Society will regress back to pre-industrial times where no one knew how to do anything and had no college education since they won't need it because robots do everything.
But the last thing this society needs is millions of idle people with no job and nothing to do all day. LOL Good people may use the time to pray and read the Bible if that's allowed, and spend time with family, but the majority of people will probably spend their time hooking up with boyfriends or girlfriends, or drinking, partying, roaming the streets looking for trouble. So when that happens they will have to institute permanent curfews, then permits for going out and about town. They will have to have strict laws to keep people in check. People will need permission to leave their house. People will get bored and frustrated because people need something to do. They need work. Crimes of passion, accidents, obesity, everything bad will increase 1,000 times with everyone idle and nothing to do but try stupid stunts that get themselves hurt and stuff. Work keeps people focused on a goal, a purpose, it keeps people grounded.

Desk trauma · Aug 22, 2022

Skye1300 said:
Wow. It may look and sound good and shiny on the outside, because they have to dress it up and make it look good for people to accept it. But people almost went nuts during the lockdown when everyone was forced to stay home. So what are people going to do when everyone is home and no one is working? More time for people to drink and get drunk and pick fights, more time for people to get into trouble. Work keeps people busy. UBI won't stop crime because people don't commit crimes because of lack of money. With no one working, unfortunately people will have more time to get into trouble.
Also anyone who gives you free money is going to eventually want to control you. They will get you used to it and where you depend on it and once people don't know how to work anymore, then will come the many strings and I'm sure one of them will be a chip in your brain/mark of the beast. And what about college? If everything is automated and done by machines will people have degrees anymore? Society will regress back to pre-industrial times where no one knew how to do anything and had no college education since they won't need it because robots do everything.
But the last thing this society needs is millions of idle people with no job and nothing to do all day. LOL Good people may use the time to pray and read the Bible if that's allowed, and spend time with family, but the majority of people will probably spend their time hooking up with boyfriends or girlfriends, or drinking, partying, roaming the streets looking for trouble. So when that happens they will have to institute permanent curfews, then permits for going out and about town. They will have to have strict laws to keep people in check. People will need permission to leave their house. People will get bored and frustrated because people need something to do. They need work. Crimes of passion, accidents, obesity, everything bad will increase 1,000 times with everyone idle and nothing to do but try stupid stunts that get themselves hurt and stuff. Work keeps people focused on a goal, a purpose, it keeps people grounded.

The only reason you’re not involved in drunken debauchery, drugs or crime is because you have to show up for work?

Pommer · Aug 22, 2022

Desk trauma said:
That’s not going to happen.

Last night I watched a TicTok of a man explaining that he had to go into work to fill an emergency 500 jar/day order for “everything bagel” topping as he filled jar after jar by hand.
One works hard like that with the knowledge that this success will lead to, one day, a machine doing the filling of the jars.
Doing things the same way as what got us here isn’t going to get us any further; new systems/techniques will be developed, this may include new ways to spread profit to those who did not directly work for that profit.

Pommer · Aug 22, 2022

Skye1300 said:
But the last thing this society needs is millions of idle people with no job and nothing to do all day.

Who knows what they may get up to?
(Though, it sort of sounds like “heaven”, no?)

Desk trauma · Aug 22, 2022

Pommer said:
Doing things the same way as what got us here isn’t going to get us any further; new systems/techniques will be developed, this may include new ways to spread profit to those who did not directly work for that profit.

Just like the cotton farmers spread the profits after hand picking was made obsolete or the mining companies did with the advent of the continuous mining machine or the shipping companies did with the advent of containerization or the automakers did when welding was automated.

Belk · Aug 22, 2022

Skye1300 said:
Wow. It may look and sound good and shiny on the outside, because they have to dress it up and make it look good for people to accept it. But people almost went nuts during the lockdown when everyone was forced to stay home. So what are people going to do when everyone is home and no one is working? More time for people to drink and get drunk and pick fights, more time for people to get into trouble. Work keeps people busy. UBI won't stop crime because people don't commit crimes because of lack of money. With no one working, unfortunately people will have more time to get into trouble.
Also anyone who gives you free money is going to eventually want to control you. They will get you used to it and where you depend on it and once people don't know how to work anymore, then will come the many strings and I'm sure one of them will be a chip in your brain/mark of the beast. And what about college? If everything is automated and done by machines will people have degrees anymore? Society will regress back to pre-industrial times where no one knew how to do anything and had no college education since they won't need it because robots do everything.
But the last thing this society needs is millions of idle people with no job and nothing to do all day. LOL Good people may use the time to pray and read the Bible if that's allowed, and spend time with family, but the majority of people will probably spend their time hooking up with boyfriends or girlfriends, or drinking, partying, roaming the streets looking for trouble. So when that happens they will have to institute permanent curfews, then permits for going out and about town. They will have to have strict laws to keep people in check. People will need permission to leave their house. People will get bored and frustrated because people need something to do. They need work. Crimes of passion, accidents, obesity, everything bad will increase 1,000 times with everyone idle and nothing to do but try stupid stunts that get themselves hurt and stuff. Work keeps people focused on a goal, a purpose, it keeps people grounded.

People don't commit crime due to lack of money? Got a citation for that because crime is highly correlated with poverty so you will need some pretty convincing evidence.

Sparagmos · Aug 22, 2022

Skye1300 said:
Wow. It may look and sound good and shiny on the outside, because they have to dress it up and make it look good for people to accept it. But people almost went nuts during the lockdown when everyone was forced to stay home. So what are people going to do when everyone is home and no one is working? More time for people to drink and get drunk and pick fights, more time for people to get into trouble. Work keeps people busy. UBI won't stop crime because people don't commit crimes because of lack of money. With no one working, unfortunately people will have more time to get into trouble.
Also anyone who gives you free money is going to eventually want to control you. They will get you used to it and where you depend on it and once people don't know how to work anymore, then will come the many strings and I'm sure one of them will be a chip in your brain/mark of the beast. And what about college? If everything is automated and done by machines will people have degrees anymore? Society will regress back to pre-industrial times where no one knew how to do anything and had no college education since they won't need it because robots do everything.
But the last thing this society needs is millions of idle people with no job and nothing to do all day. LOL Good people may use the time to pray and read the Bible if that's allowed, and spend time with family, but the majority of people will probably spend their time hooking up with boyfriends or girlfriends, or drinking, partying, roaming the streets looking for trouble. So when that happens they will have to institute permanent curfews, then permits for going out and about town. They will have to have strict laws to keep people in check. People will need permission to leave their house. People will get bored and frustrated because people need something to do. They need work. Crimes of passion, accidents, obesity, everything bad will increase 1,000 times with everyone idle and nothing to do but try stupid stunts that get themselves hurt and stuff. Work keeps people focused on a goal, a purpose, it keeps people grounded.

You don’t have any goals or aspirations outside of your job? No one is proposing people not work. UBI as proposed either barely pays bills or doesn’t pay enough to live. But people could choose to work less, which would be good. More time with families and to focus on personal development isn’t a bad thing. Most of us work too much, not too little.

Why do you think that people who don’t have to work or work less would be less moral?

Why are we creating less jobs for people and not more? Universal Basic Income?

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