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I think you'll find that it is neither provable nor falsifiable in general.@Shemjaza @FrumiousBandersnatch
Many Christians are comfortable with Theistic Evolution. What I am trying to prove is that there is Intelligent Design behind the origin and diversification of life.
Is that why you're wearing a mask?We already have a demonstrable natural explanation for the diversity of life, and research into the natural origin of life is making good progress.
Arguments from incredulity are a kind of argument from ignorance. When you find yourself wanting to make one, it's worth considering learning about the topic so that you understand why people who spend their careers studying it disagree with you. If you remain unconvinced, you should then be able to make a cogent argument against it.I do believe in Science and I know we are not living in Alice's Wonderland. That's why I am having hard time agreeing with (some) Evolutionists that environmental changes like fire, thunderstorm, flood, "survival of the fittest" etc. transformed mud (inorganic matter) to Amino acids and diversified it into thousands of millions of complex species !!
You really should make an effort to learn something about the subject before attempting to criticise it.Let me give this another try.
a) Primitive life surviving the hostile environment of early Earth and progressing to higher form implies the involvement of an intelligent mind.
b) The primitive bacteria, presumably unisex, split into complex male and female species with the instinct to live together and multiply shows the involvement of an intelligent mind.
c) Physical beings having metaphysical properties like life, instinct to protect their children, consciousness, free will etc. of humans shows the involvement of an intelligent mind.
It would take a hypothesis that is better than the explanations currently available; i.e. that is testable, makes fruitful predictions, provides an understanding of the underlying mechanisms, unifies with existing knowledge, is simple (Occam's Razor), coherent, consistent, and doesn't invoke the inexplicable - you can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.if you are still not convinced, out of curiosity, what would it take you to believe Intelligent Design? If there is nothing - even in theory - that can convince you about the the involvement of an intelligent mind, I am not going to waste anyone's time.
Simple life on Earth today thrives in the conditions you've mentioned. We know that the building blocks of life are generated in those conditions. There's nothing to suggest intelligence, and plenty to suggest the lack of it - including the many mass extinction events through Earth's history.Origin of life is arguably the most complex event known to humans. It is so complex that some scholars believe the early forms of life like Amino acids or Protein molecule came from outer space. The life originated at the time when Earth was hostile to living forms, with harmful radiations, devastating tornadoes, earthquakes etc. For most part of Earth's existence, Moon's gravitational field caused frequent tsunami's. Yet, the primitive life not only thrived but it advanced to more complex forms. Doesn't this prove the involvement of an intelligent mind?
This is gibberish. But I can tell you that the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that entropy never decreases in a isolated system, doesn't apply to open systems like the Earth, which orbits a source of low entropy energy called the sun...an object cannot escape a universal cause unless it is acted upon by an external agent so, the order in the diversification of life posits (pre) design because it is the disorder that increases with time.
My avatar is not me, AV. It's just a whimsical imagining - like those bible stories you're so fond of.Is that why you're wearing a mask?
That is a highly imaginative (though not very well-informed) scenario. I think that you will discover that in reality the location of these increasingly light and sound sensitive structures was settled long before they came to resemble modern eyes and ears.Let me rephrase this.
Animals have two eyes and two ears located at the right positions to estimate the distance of the source (of sound and light/image they perceive). If it were some natural, unintelligent agents which caused the eyes and ears to appear then, the first species to have the eyes and ears should have them at random places on the body. As far as I am aware of, fossil records show the eyes and ears at the right places from the first generation of species to have them so, involvement of the intelligent designer is certain.
The "cause" was randomly distributed variation exposed to natural selection over many generations.My post was not about "when" but "how", referring to the the cause - whether the cause was intelligent or unintelligent
I conclude that the clock is designed because I see evidence of human manufacture--what William Paley called "indications of contrivance." I see no such indications in living creatures. That does not mean design is not present, merely that it cannot be demonstrated.Fair enough.
The mutation that led to the diversification of the life is far more complex than the design behind the clock. Let me state two reasons
a) The agents that (allegedly) mutated say, the early fish into lizard worked for millions of years, in sequence. For example, it was one sort of agents that transformed the fish to walk on its fins; another set mutated it to develop air-breathing lungs; third set to transformed the fish skin to land animal skin etc.
b) Some organs evolved for one purpose but later used for another. E.g. early fishes developed (external) bladders for floating purpose but later the bladder was transformed to (internal) air breathing lungs. Feathers appeared on those dinosaurs to maintain body temperature but later used for the flight when the became birds.
If it is obvious that a clock has (pre) design, it is a million times more obvious that the species we see today are result of i(I)ntelliegent design
The existence of a mechanical clock, thus far, is entirely dependent on the existence of homo sapiens, as its pre-requisite.James A said:The mutation that led to the diversification of the life is far more complex than the design behind the clock.
...
If it is obvious that a clock has (pre) design, it is a million times more obvious that the species we see today are result of i(I)ntelliegent design.
Flapdoodle.Let me give this another try.
a) Primitive life surviving the hostile environment of early Earth and progressing to higher form implies the involvement of an intelligent mind.
Sex did not come from bacteria. First cells started forming into clumps that developed a life of their own independent of the cells. Some cells broke off to form new clumps. One type of clump came upon the novelty of sharing parts of the genome with neighbors. This gave them a huge survival advantage, in that a beneficial mutation could now spread to all future members of the species. The cells that left one clump with half the genome became known as sperm, and those that stayed with the source became known as the egg.b) The primitive bacteria, presumably unisex, split into complex male and female species with the instinct to live together and multiply shows the involvement of an intelligent mind.
Why could not survival of the fittest preserve those children that were protected by their parents? Why can not survival of the fittest preserve those who were aware of the self and the needs of the self?c) Physical beings having metaphysical properties like life, instinct to protect their children, consciousness, free will etc. of humans shows the involvement of an intelligent mind.
Again, I used to be a Creationist. I argued long and hard for creation. But I was persuaded first by the evidence for an old earth, then for the evidence of the progression of species through millions of years, and then by the seeming randomness of the changes.if you are still not convinced, out of curiosity, what would it take you to believe Intelligent Design? If there is nothing - even in theory - that can convince you about the the involvement of an intelligent mind, I am not going to waste anyone's time.
This thread is not about the origin of life. It is about human evolution. Do you or do you not agree with the main thesis of this thread? Why change the subject?Origin of life is arguably the most complex event known to humans. It is so complex that some scholars believe the early forms of life like Amino acids or Protein molecule came from outer space. The life originated at the time when Earth was hostile to living forms, with harmful radiations, devastating tornadoes, earthquakes etc. For most part of Earth's existence, Moon's gravitational field caused frequent tsunami's. Yet, the primitive life not only thrived but it advanced to more complex forms. Doesn't this prove the involvement of an intelligent mind?
...in a closed system. You left out the last part of the second law of your statement of the second law...an object cannot escape a universal cause unless it is acted upon by an external agent so, the order in the diversification of life posits (pre) design because it is the disorder that increases with time.
It never ceases to amaze me is that IDers have no way to distinguish the influence of their own intelligence from their inferred (ie: covertly believed-in) 'external' designer's intelligence.doubtingmerle said:Again, I used to be a Creationist. I argued long and hard for creation. But I was persuaded first by the evidence for an old earth, then for the evidence of the progression of species through millions of years, and then by the seeming randomness of the changes.JamesA said:if you are still not convinced, out of curiosity, what would it take you to believe Intelligent Design?
Jesus said ...For us, there is no way of escaping the influences of our own intelligence .. (like it or not).
Don't know about taking it personally. What they may be displaying is frustration which you interpret as taking it personally.Jesus said ...
Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Some people invest a LOT of their treasure into college ... and subsequently their hearts follow.
So when a guy like me comes around and says "you're wrong" about this or that, they take it personally.
And will defend their acquired knowledge passionately.
Why the Moon is getting further awayCitation needed.
Well your failure to understand classical physics isn't relevant to the continuing existence of non-human apes, either.
Intelligent Design however is a position that evolution and diversification is impossible and so a form of Creationism is necessary as an explanation.
These are not the same position.
You may believe in science, but you clearly don't understand how it works.I believe in Science and I know we are living in a world which follows some principles. That's why I refuse to believe that some, unintelligent, random agents like wildfire, thunderstorm, flood, earthquake, "survival of the fittest" etc. led to the arrival of thousands of millions of complex species.
Are you suggesting that early tides were causing earthquakes?Why the Moon is getting further away
"It is thought that the Moon was formed when a proto-planet about the size of Mars collided with the early Earth around 4.5bn years ago. The debris left over from impact coalesced to form the Moon. Computer simulations of such an impact are consistent with the Earth Moon system we see in the 21st Century.
The simulations also imply that at the time of its formation, the Moon sat much closer to the Earth - a mere 22,500km (14,000 miles) away, compared with the quarter of a million miles (402,336 km) between the Earth and the Moon today."
It is actually the other way around. I believe in Science and I know we are living in a world which follows some principles. That's why I refuse to believe that some, unintelligent, random agents like wildfire, thunderstorm, flood, earthquake, "survival of the fittest" etc. led to the arrival of thousands of millions of complex species.
Why the Moon is getting further away
"It is thought that the Moon was formed when a proto-planet about the size of Mars collided with the early Earth around 4.5bn years ago. The debris left over from impact coalesced to form the Moon. Computer simulations of such an impact are consistent with the Earth Moon system we see in the 21st Century.
The simulations also imply that at the time of its formation, the Moon sat much closer to the Earth - a mere 22,500km (14,000 miles) away, compared with the quarter of a million miles (402,336 km) between the Earth and the Moon today."
It is actually the other way around. I believe in Science and I know we are living in a world which follows some principles. That's why I refuse to believe that some, unintelligent, random agents like wildfire, thunderstorm, flood, earthquake, "survival of the fittest" etc. led to the arrival of thousands of millions of complex species.
Well your failure to understand classical physics isn't relevant to the continuing existence of non-human apes, either."
Now all you have to do is demonstrate the presence of design.What I am trying to establish is that Apes (and humans) still exists by d(D)esign. As far as I understand, it doesn't matter very much if Intelligent Design is different from Creation, at least for this discussion
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