Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Lewis Black did a bit about visiting your neighbor NZ. He said it was a beautiful country, but the flight was 18 hours long. "If they want people to visit, they need to jump off their island and push it closer!"It's like the continents moving around. With special instruments we can measure it... but while Australia is moving half an inch a year towards India, I've never felt it.
That's a completely flawed argument. Declaring yourself to be correct on basis that it must be correct to some higher, but unknowable standard is just assuming your conclusion.Did Lord's plan "fail" when Satan tricked humanity in to the Fall? Was He incapable of striking a human king (Herod) down when He instructed Mary and Joseph to flee?
Earthly definition of "success" or "fail" is not binding to the Eternal Mind.
Of course it isn't, because 'God Works In Mysterious Ways'...Did Lord's plan "fail" when Satan tricked humanity in to the Fall? Was He incapable of striking a human king (Herod) down when He instructed Mary and Joseph to flee?
Earthly definition of "success" or "fail" is not binding to the Eternal Mind.
When did this fall occur? In 4004 BC when only the first two people were alive?Did Lord's plan "fail" when Satan tricked humanity in to the Fall?
That's a completely flawed argument. Declaring yourself to be correct on basis that it must be correct to some higher, but unknowable standard is just assuming your conclusion.
We don't have any objective access to an Eternal Mind. We only have the evidence of the phenomenal world.
When did this fall occur? In 4004 BC when only the first two people were alive?
It may be that some atheists hate the concept of god, but atheists don't believe in god; they can't hate what doesn't exist.
Right from the get-go, you have already asserted there must be a "creator", but at no point do you say why this is a necessary condition.Let me summarize why I think Evolution can't be true. Again, I don't deny Theistic Evolution; it is the claim of some unintelligent agents driving the diversification of life without a preplan is what I disagree with. In order to focus on the pre-design versus no-design discussion, let us imagine "creator" in general - out side of the description in the Bible; I don't want anyone's personal disagreement with Religion interfere with this discussion.
Arguments from incredulity and ignorance. A simple internet search would give you answers to every one of those assertions.1) metaphysical properties
Many living beings, especially humans, have properties that cannot be described physically (if we are evolved by the action of some natural agents then we are nothing but chemical/physical equations). How do we explain the metaphysical properties like love, consciousness, empathy, life etc. ? Evidently, they originated from a metaphysical entity we call, God. If God acted at some phases of our life, it is natural to believe that God is the cause and designer of the life.
2) Complex, cumulative, well defined product.
A complex, cumulative, well-defined product posits predesign so, Intelligent Design is the default explanation of the life. Why do we assume that some natural agents like environmental changes ,"survival of the fittest" etc. would result into this many complex species? Where did their instincts come from ( why do baby turtles move towards the ocean right after they are hatched ) ?
No one bothers to explain why the leaves are scattered randomly after a storm nonetheless, if there is a pattern or discipline in which the leaves are arranged, the involvement of an intelligent mind is all but certain. No objects can escape a universal cause unless it is acted upon by an external agent. It is the disorder among physical objects that increases with time so, if we see the order increased over the time - more complex species appeared over the time - then the involvement of an intelligent mind is certain.
3) Origin of life.
Origin of life is arguably the most complex event known to humans. It is so complex that some scholars believe the early forms of life like Amino acids or Protein molecule came from outer space. The life originated at the time when Earth was hostile to living forms, with harmful radiations, devastating tornadoes, earthquakes etc. For most part of Earth's existence, Moon's gravitational field caused frequent tsunami's. Yet, the primitive life not only thrived but it advanced to more complex forms. Doesn't this prove the involvement of an intelligent mind?
4) Male and female.
What sort of "natural agents" mutated the primitive bacteria, presumably unisex, into complex male and female with organs which complement each other? Not to mention, their instinct to live together and reproduce.
5) Irreducible complex.
Two well placed eyes and ears are required for estimating the distance of the source. Just curious, did the earliest species to have eyes and ears had them at random places and only those with the organs correctly placed survive?
Yes it is.6) Falsifiable.
Is the theory of Evolution falsifiable?
That's just more ignorance - venomous animals are immune to their own venom.7) Venomous animals.
What kind of "natural" agents mutated an organism (say, ancestors of modern day snakes) to generate an enzyme (venom) which is capable of killing its own body cells?
Right from the get-go, you have already asserted there must be a "creator", but at no point do you say why this is a necessary condition.
Arguments from incredulity and ignorance. A simple internet search would give you answers to every one of those assertions.
Yes it is.
That's just more ignorance - venomous animals are immune to their own venom.
First off, based on the conventional wisdom, I can assume creator's role ( or design) in the diversification of life until, proven otherwise.
Secondly, there are many a priori arguments for the existence of god
1) Prime mover by Aristotle
2) Aquinas' proof of God by St. Aquinas
3) Cosmological argument
"Handbook of Christian Apologetics" presents 19 arguments for god.
You unfortunately missed this, I was trying to prove that "natural" agents cannot mutate an organism to produce something which can destroy itself.
Why do we assume that some natural agents like environmental changes ,"survival of the fittest" etc. would result into this many complex species? Where did their instincts come from ( why do baby turtles move towards the ocean right after they are hatched ) ?
No one bothers to explain why the leaves are scattered randomly after a storm nonetheless, if there is a pattern or discipline in which the leaves are arranged, the involvement of an intelligent mind is all but certain. No objects can escape a universal cause unless it is acted upon by an external agent.
3) Origin of life.
Origin of life is arguably the most complex event known to humans. It is so complex that some scholars believe the early forms of life like Amino acids or Protein molecule came from outer space. The life originated at the time when Earth was hostile to living forms, with harmful radiations, devastating tornadoes, earthquakes etc. For most part of Earth's existence, Moon's gravitational field caused frequent tsunami's. Yet, the primitive life not only thrived but it advanced to more complex forms. Doesn't this prove the involvement of an intelligent mind?
4) Male and female.
What sort of "natural agents" mutated the primitive bacteria, presumably unisex, into complex male and female with organs which complement each other? Not to mention, their instinct to live together and reproduce.
5) Irreducible complex.
Two well placed eyes and ears are required for estimating the distance of the source. Just curious, did the earliest species to have eyes and ears had them at random places and only those with the organs correctly placed survive?
6) Falsifiable.
Is the theory of Evolution falsifiable?
7) Venomous animals.
What kind of "natural" agents mutated an organism (say, ancestors of modern day snakes) to generate an enzyme (venom) which is capable of killing its own body cells?
The problem is that a deity is being proposed as a rational explanation for the history and diversity of life.The quote I replied to referred to "omniscient deity" which understandably is the Creator who transcends space and time so, I did not assume anything. What I tried to explain in my reply was the way the mind works within space-time (human) and beyond space-time (God) are different.
Fair enough. If detectable effects that distinguish the deity from other causes can be predicted then tested then such a metaphysical entity can be demonstrated. If they can't then I can't see a justification to assume or accept it.We don't have the objective access by definition - mathematical equations can't go beyond our physical universe and the "deity" we are talking about is metaphysical as well. We however can do a-posteriori study, analyze the effect to determine the nature of its cause.
This particular atheist has seen no evidence to support the assertion, nor have theists satisfied their burden of proof or provided plausible rational argument to support it. Further, the claimed entity is remarkably ill-defined, with theists differing over its supposed attributes.Burden of proof is on theists to prove that god exists nonetheless, I am curious to know why do atheists think god doesn't exist or god can't exists
Understood. But that wasn't the main point of my question. You refer to the fall as an historical event. Do you believe that there was a literal Adam and eve that were created instead of born? If so, what do you do with all the evidence that says humans evolved?It is a very small group of Christians who believe in this "4000 BC" time estimation
What about the existence of God and deep time? or the existence of God and Original Sin?The existence of God and evolution are not opposing ideas.
The default position is not "God must exist until proven otherwise". The default position is "we don't know if God exists", so your assumption remains unjustified.First off, based on the conventional wisdom, I can assume creator's role ( or design) in the diversification of life until, proven otherwise.
Secondly, there are many a priori arguments for the existence of god
1) Prime mover by Aristotle
2) Aquinas' proof of God by St. Aquinas
3) Cosmological argument
"Handbook of Christian Apologetics" presents 19 arguments for god.
Yeah, no.Serious ?? a physical object cannot have metaphysical properties unless it is acted upon by a metaphysical being and this is by definition. I don't need to look up.
Oh, I see what you did there. Adding "in terms of pre-design" because you know your original question was easily answered. FYI ToE says nothing about whether or not there is pre-design, it simply explains how evolution happens.Would would you elaborate? What evidence would make the theory false (in terms of its conclusion that here is no pre-design ) ?
You made an incorrect statement when trying to prove something that is, also, incorrect. Don't try to blame others for your own mistakes.You unfortunately missed this, I was trying to prove that "natural" agents cannot mutate an organism to produce something which can destroy itself.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?