Why are so many against reformed Theology…

Hazelelponi · Dec 12, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
I see, thank you for that. Really. So, the Reformed position would be that even our apparent longing for God or for Truth prior to conversion to Christ is wholly God acting in us, and not our own selves or wills longing for God?

Yes.. that's correct.. God works in us drawing us, just as the Bible says, prior to coming to a saving faith, in order to bring us to a saving faith.

Tra Phull · Dec 12, 2019

Jeff - I said "to damnation", not "examination", autocorrect got me again.

Yes, violence is done to people's' wills, by what DR proposes.

Hazelelponi · Dec 12, 2019

Tra Phull said:
Jeff - I said "to damnation", not "examination", autocorrect got me again.

Yes, violence is done to people's' wills, by what DR proposes.

The Bible in no way supports a libertarian free will. Will yes, but not in the libertarian sense.

Tra Phull · Dec 12, 2019

DR, not DR

Tra Phull · Dec 12, 2019

I give up. RT, NOT DR

Tra Phull · Dec 12, 2019

I did not use the term "libertarian"

Al Touthentop · Dec 12, 2019

1Reformedman said:
but nothing in that says you can obey the command. You are adding to the bible what isnt there.

It also doesn't say that I can eat an entire rutabaga. If one is commanded something, then you are suggesting that what I need to do is look for the place where it says that command can be obeyed in the first place. What sort of God goes through all the trouble of putting his word on parchments and then expects me to interpret it through such a strange lens? If God commands it, why would I not assume that it is possible for me to obey it?

Was it possible for Abraham to go to a land that God commanded him to go see?

Was it possible for Noah to build an ark?

Perhaps you can give me the scriptural lens through which I look to assume otherwise.

There is NOT ONE COMMAND IN ALL OF THE WORLD that contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it. Stop assuming you have something you dont have as a lost one. God's grace is needed to obey his commands

God's commands ARE grace. They are GIVEN. Grace is not magic dust. You keep repeating this idea that we can't obey commands, but provide no scripture to explain it. Help me out here. Where do I find this idea in scripture?

Al Touthentop · Dec 12, 2019

1Reformedman said:
And Romans 9:22 backs that up. Some vessels were prepared (PREDESTINED) for eternal ruin and the other are v vessels of his mercy. Notice the God is patient toward the vessels of his wrath so the vessels of his mercy obtain it. IN other words, God is patient with sinful mankind long enough so that all he intends to save are saved. The same is said God patience toward the elect the elect in 2 Peter 3:9

What do you think is the answer that Paul had in mind to the question: "For who has resisted the will of God?"

Al Touthentop · Dec 12, 2019

1Reformedman said:
and yet it was taught before 325 ad in the chruch.

What's your source for this?

Oseas · Dec 12, 2019

His student said:
The GOD I "have there" is not small at all. He is the God who creates and brings to pass everything that occurs in His creation by His Word, for His Word, and in Who's Word all things exist.

I suppose, if you insist on using those terms, God is indeed a "prisoner" to His powerful Word. He cannot lie.

His Word which proceeds from His mouth will not return to Him without accomplishing everything He sends that Word forth to accomplish - namely everything that happens outside of His inherent existence.

Concerning His Word John says at the end of His gospel (in the most massive understatement in the history of the universe):

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

God? God is a title. Who is Him? Who is God the Father?

Revelation 10:v.7 says: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
What kind of MYSTERY of God is this? Will be we have only heard to speak of Him, but we know not who really is He or the MYSTERY of Him to be known only now ?

ripple the car · Dec 12, 2019

Al Touthentop · Dec 12, 2019

Oseas said:
God? God is a title. Who is Him? Who is God the Father?

Revelation 10:v.7 says: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
What kind of MYSTERY of God is this? Will be we have only heard to speak of Him, but we know not who really is He or the MYSTERY of Him to be known only now ?

Could this be talking about the completion of scripture?

Al Touthentop · Dec 13, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
The Bible in no way supports a libertarian free will. Will yes, but not in the libertarian sense.

If it doesn't, then total depravity and sin is God's work rather than man's. But Ezekiel 18 pretty much destroys both the idea that man does not obey of his own free will, and that the sins of the fathers are charged to the sons. And that's God talking. So he must have had the prophet write his words with the intent to mislead, if Calvin was right.

“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.

.........

Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son."

I guess God never got around to reading Luther or Calvin.

StillGods · Dec 13, 2019

I think reformed theology is disliked because it says God doesnt love.

zoidar · Dec 13, 2019

StillGods said:
I think reformed theology is disliked because it says God doesnt love.

It's the perspective of those that don't hold to the reformed doctrine. Of course reformers disagree.

Hazelelponi · Dec 13, 2019

zoidar said:
It's the perspective of those that don't hold to the reformed doctrine. Of course reformers disagree.

Yep.. all we see is a loving God who protects us...

BNR32FAN · Dec 13, 2019

1Reformedman said:
and yet it was taught before 325 ad in the chruch.

By who?

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 13, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
What do you think is the answer that Paul had in mind to the question: "For who has resisted the will of God?"

In general, re Ephesians 2, everyone ? Everyone once was under the prince of the power of the air, with all the sons of disobedience worldwide (all people before a few are redeemed, thus becoming, a few, sons of God) . i.e. all readers, all viewers, all posters, everyone everywhere, except the redeemed of the Lord ?

BNR32FAN · Dec 13, 2019

1Reformedman said:
And Romans 9:22 backs that up. Some vessels were prepared (PREDESTINED) for eternal ruin and the other are v vessels of his mercy. Notice the God is patient toward the vessels of his wrath so the vessels of his mercy obtain it. IN other words, God is patient with sinful mankind long enough so that all he intends to save are saved. The same is said God patience toward the elect the elect in 2 Peter 3:9

Romans 9 is about God’s calling not election to salvation. If you keep reading you will see this.

“And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ' MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ' BELOVED.'" " AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:23-26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the similarity in these next verses.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

When Paul said it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs he was referring to those whom God has called, not election to salvation. He is explaining that God has now turned to the Gentiles offering them access into His covenant even tho they did not pursue it. Hence not according to him who wills or runs.

In Romans 2 Paul explained why people are condemned. Notice the mirror verse pertaining to God’s patience and kindness.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul makes it absolutely clear that the unelected are storing up the wrath of God for themselves because of their stubbornness, not because of their inability to repent. This is where Calvin made his mistake on election. Calvin teaches that man is incapable of repentance but that is not what Paul taught. In order for someone to be condemned for their stubbornness to repent they must first be capable of it. If someone who is incapable of repentance fails to repent then the cause was not their stubbornness but their inability to do so.

BBAS 64 · Dec 13, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
God gave the rules. If we don't obey those rules, we aren't elect.

That isn't what God said. If he did say that somewhere, you can easily cite it.

Good Day, Al

First let's get a good working definition of the word election:

Thayers:

1) the act of picking out, choosing

1a) of the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

Strongs:

ek-log-ay'

From G1586; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely): - chosen, election.

EZE: 36 I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

I will… God makes a choice to do He alone is the “verb” doer. What does he choose to do cleanse, give, remove, put in…. what or whom is the passive object of his doing that would be you, he chose to do it to the “you” not everyone but “you”.

What are the direct effects of this doing that God has chosen to do and purposed to do what does he “cause” by doing? Walk in his statutes and carefully obey His rules.

God choice in election serves His purpose, which he acts upon to cause direct results, and he cannot fail. He alone is the sufficient, primary, and only cause in our salvation (you shall be my people) and obedience.

Romans: 9 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls she was told, The older will serve the younger.”

Being not yet born neither doing good or bad... would you agree obey is "good" thing to do and "Bad" is therefore disobeying? Gods purpose of/ for election is not dependent on those types of things works, but the “because” is God himself who always does that which is good. Gods choosing is always a just and good thing as it serves His purpose, He is gloried in everything he does.

So you seem to assert that His doing is a result of our doing.. we are the primary cause for God to choose and do. Can you cite that and then exegete the text(s).

In Him,

Bill

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