Why are any of us responsible for original sin?

directory · Sep 18, 2015

As it's described to me, original sin seems like a kind of spiritual poison that makes its victims (us, that is) inherently sinful. But how is it just to hold anyone accountable for having that poison in their veins when they never chose to imbibe it? If "original sin" refers to the Fall of Adam and Eve and the subsequent sinful predisposition of humankind, then where's the justice in blaming the Fall on people born centuries after it happened, or in blaming people for having natures they couldn't help being born with? If I was born what I am, If I had these flaws thrust upon me against my will, then why should I be threatened with punishment for them? I'm not the poison– I was the one poisoned. If it were up to me, I wouldn't be a sinner. It's a tenet of Christianity that none of us actually deserve salvation– if we neither committed the Fall nor asked to be born sinners, then what did we do to find ourselves in that position?

paul1149 · Sep 18, 2015

directory said:
if we neither committed the Fall nor asked to be born sinners, then what did we do to find ourselves in that position?

We had the mixed fortune to be the sons of Adam - the good being that we were born at all, and the bad being that we inherited his miserable state. If you're riding a bus and the driver intentionally drives it over a cliff, you die. It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is. God is just and orderly. He set up Creation with laws and a hierarchical structure, and when man fell He did not override either of them. Had He done that, the root issues of the rebellion would not have been solved. We would have started fresh and anew, and everything would have been great - until the next person disobeyed.

So God chose to allow the consequences to fall. This is why Paul says:

Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. -Rom 5:14

Yet God did not abandon man, as He well could have. Jesus coming and giving Himself as the most dear ransom sacrifice was a rescue mission. We were helplessly held hostage to the bondage of sin and its consequence, death. He has provided a way out, all that's required is that we agree to accept it.

Even in Adam's shadow, we do have free will, however, for which we are accountable. We must choose the one way God has provided for us if we want to live in His kingdom. There are consequences whichever way we choose. If we don't choose Him, are we not taking ownership of Adam's sin?

TheQuietRiot · Sep 19, 2015

God has created us sick, and commanded us to become well.

If we are truly his creation, then how can we be accountable for our "sinful" nature he has given us?

oi_antz · Sep 19, 2015

directory said:
blaming the Fall on people born centuries after it happened, or in blaming people for having natures they couldn't help being born with?

Can you please provide the scripture for this idea?

If I was born what I am, If I had these flaws thrust upon me against my will, then why should I be threatened with punishment for them?

You aren't threatened with punishment, but rather offered enormous mercies and forgiveness, and invited to accept it, and to turn away from sin. If you do that before God grows weary about contending with you, then you will be accepted. Genesis 6:3. Genesis 4:7.

if we neither committed the Fall nor asked to be born sinners, then what did we do to find ourselves in that position?

Nothing. Life is a gift, intended by God to be good. It is what we do with it that we are responsible for. Eg, do we use it to drink drive, rip off old ladies, feed the needy? What we do with our temporal life in apparent absence of God is a pretty good indication of our character. Keep in mind that God isn't out to punish for mistakes, but rather the scriptures describe that some people exercise sin, and that behaviour is not suitable for everlasting life. Furthermore, this world has many temptations, and the world itself encourages those temptations by condescending holiness. Yet, as the parable of the wheat and tares describes, in the end the wheat is gathered into the barn and the tares are destroyed. So in paradise the ones who are there do not tempt each other to sin, and they all prefer to not be sinners. Meanwhile, as tares grow among wheat, the wheat is naturally stunted.

seashale76 · Sep 19, 2015

This is not an Orthodox belief. In Orthodoxy we prefer the term ancestral sin. Original sin refers to the first sin of Adam and Eve. We do not agree with the Western view that we are also 'guilty' of this sin. We understand that all of us have inherited the consequence of this sin, which is death, but we are not guilty of Adam and Eve's sin ourselves and we don't inherit that guilt. Nor do we see fallen humanity as being inherently depraved. We are cleansed and restored at our Baptism.

seashale76 · Sep 19, 2015

TheQuietRiot said:
God has created us sick, and commanded us to become well.

We call the Church the hospital for sinners with Christ is the Great Physician and the eucharist as the medicine for what ails us (the fountain of immortality).

In the Christian view everyone sins. We're not born depraved though. Sin means 'missing the mark'. The mark is living according to God's will. When you miss the mark you separate yourself from God in a way that you are no longer participating in His energies.

Adam and Eve were created to commune with God and attain theosis (salvation)- as while they were created without sin they were not created in a state of theosis. To go against what they were told by their Creator was a choice they had and did make- the consequence being that sickness and death entered the world. God wanted to ensure our free-will to choose Him. Interestingly, it is a pious opinion in Orthodoxy that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned, and death had not entered the world- that Christ still would have come in the flesh in order to help us attain theosis. "God became man, so that man can become like God." (That is not a statement that we become gods. It is becoming by grace what God is by nature- not becoming God in essence but participating in His energies.)

Plus, it wasn't too late for Adam and Eve- even then. In the icon of the Resurrection- Christ is depicted trampling the gates of Hades and lifting Adam and Eve from their graves. Christ defeated sin and death and preached to those in hell/hades/sheol/the grave. Like Adam, we are dead in our sins, but through Christ (the New Adam) we are brought to life. (We don't adhere to a penal substitionary atonement model in Orthodox Christianity, but rather the Christus Victor view.)

*Note- Sorry if you've read my posts before. I don't tend to reinvent my posts and will recycle old posts and parts of old posts when the same topics keep reappearing.

TheQuietRiot · Sep 19, 2015

seashale76 said:
We call the Church the hospital for sinners with Christ is the Great Physician and the eucharist as the medicine for what ails us (the fountain of immortality).

This would be alright except that God gave us the "disease" in the first place.

So this changes nothing. Created sick, commanded to be well.

seashale76 · Sep 19, 2015

TheQuietRiot said:
This would be alright except that God gave us the "disease" in the first place.

So this changes nothing. Created sick, commanded to be well.

Except that God didn't give anyone the disease.

Lukaris · Sep 19, 2015

TheQuietRiot said:
This would be alright except that God gave us the "disease" in the first place.

So this changes nothing. Created sick, commanded to be well.

When Adam & Eve sinned we did not become instantly evil but were prone. When Cain slew Abel, depravity set in; Cain was warned by God to control his anger & he failed.

TheyCallMeDave · Sep 19, 2015

directory said:
As it's described to me, original sin seems like a kind of spiritual poison that makes its victims (us, that is) inherently sinful. But how is it just to hold anyone accountable for having that poison in their veins when they never chose to imbibe it? If "original sin" refers to the Fall of Adam and Eve and the subsequent sinful predisposition of humankind, then where's the justice in blaming the Fall on people born centuries after it happened, or in blaming people for having natures they couldn't help being born with? If I was born what I am, If I had these flaws thrust upon me against my will, then why should I be threatened with punishment for them? I'm not the poison– I was the one poisoned. If it were up to me, I wouldn't be a sinner. It's a tenet of Christianity that none of us actually deserve salvation– if we neither committed the Fall nor asked to be born sinners, then what did we do to find ourselves in that position?

Because we all belong to the human race collectively starting with Adam and Eve. What they did represents our personal situation in that we want what we want, and often without any regard for Gods moral laws. Only a true Born Again Person has power to overcome this and live for Christ daily. The world, entirely, was thrown into chaos when sin entered the world which accounts for a world that isn't perfect any longer. Each of us is guilty of our own sins but can have that removed permanently if we so choose Christ and his finished calvary merits on our behalf. Its a simple free gift to be forgiven yet even at that, most wont take it.

TheQuietRiot · Sep 19, 2015

seashale76 said:
Except that God didn't give anyone the disease.

He created us with the capacity to sin (disease).

Surely an all knowing God would know what would happen?

TheQuietRiot · Sep 19, 2015

Lukaris said:
When Adam & Eve sinned we did not become instantly evil but were prone. When Cain slew Abel, depravity set in; Cain was warned by God to control his anger & he failed.

But God knew this would happen before he created us if he is all knowing.

seashale76 · Sep 19, 2015

TheQuietRiot said:
He created us with the capacity to sin (disease).

Surely an all knowing God would know what would happen?

Hence the whole resurrection thing.

oi_antz · Sep 19, 2015

TheQuietRiot said:
He created us with the capacity to sin (disease).

Surely an all knowing God would know what would happen?

Hi there, are you happy to create your own thread to discuss this? I would like to contribute to your view of this problem, but to do it on this thread is against the forum rules and ultimately our comments will be removed by a moderator when they enforce the rules. I would thank you for that, as I am interested to probe your view.

Lukaris · Sep 19, 2015

TheQuietRiot said:
But God knew this would happen before he created us if he is all knowing.

How God foresees in his infinite being & how we perceive foresight is incomparable. In our limited capacity to perceive of God as setting us up to fail & that He would say, " I knew that would happen" seems primitive. Personally, I do not want to be delusional & claim to understand God but I think there is a form of reality in which God foresees what will happen & yet there are variables that can unfold within creation.

Honey Parallel · Sep 19, 2015

Did you ever watch this subject addressed by Christopher Hitchens, a now dead atheist who hated Christianity especially while having a brother that was a Theist. Figure out the atmosphere at that family Thanksgiving.

Guilty before you're born! That's how he put it. Guilty of the first mistake the first innocent humans made having been created without the capacity to comprehend moral choice.
And then thought crime. Condemned for what you think and by an omniscient creator that predestined your entire life birth to death, as he did all lives and all that transpires eternally, before he created the world where it would all transpire.
Pretty wild stuff that.
Makes you think.
Like someone has already suggested here once before. Why, if God is omni-benevolent did he not forgive the first mistake Adam and Eve made in the garden? And after Satan was somehow allowed or gained entry into paradise. When he was expelled from Heaven how could he enter paradise? When God sent him to earth as punishment for leading that war in Heaven. He and all his angels with him cast to the new earth where the first naive humans would be created to dwell in his domain.

directory said:
As it's described to me, original sin seems like a kind of spiritual poison that makes its victims (us, that is) inherently sinful. But how is it just to hold anyone accountable for having that poison in their veins when they never chose to imbibe it? If "original sin" refers to the Fall of Adam and Eve and the subsequent sinful predisposition of humankind, then where's the justice in blaming the Fall on people born centuries after it happened, or in blaming people for having natures they couldn't help being born with? If I was born what I am, If I had these flaws thrust upon me against my will, then why should I be threatened with punishment for them? I'm not the poison– I was the one poisoned. If it were up to me, I wouldn't be a sinner. It's a tenet of Christianity that none of us actually deserve salvation– if we neither committed the Fall nor asked to be born sinners, then what did we do to find ourselves in that position?

oi_antz · Sep 19, 2015

Honey Parallel said:
Why, if God is omni-benevolent did he not forgive the first mistake Adam and Eve made in the garden?

I read that the story doesn't show that He didn't forgive them. Can you please describe why it is assumed so?

Honey Parallel · Sep 19, 2015

How does the story show he forgave them? They were evicted from the garden. Sin entered the world through Adam. Eve and all women were cursed in child birth to suffer pain. How were they forgiven? Had they been forgiven wouldn't they have been allowed to stay in the garden?

oi_antz · Sep 19, 2015

Hi there, so based on this response, it seems that you would agree there isn't a direct implication in the story that God did not forgive Adam and Eve, but rather it has been assumed so due to a lack of direct implication that He did.

Honey Parallel said:
How does the story show he forgave them?

I don't remember that it does.

They were evicted from the garden. Sin entered the world through Adam. Eve and all women were cursed in child birth to suffer pain.

That appears to be a consequence though, not due to a decision to not forgive. It is most easily understood to have been a change of world view, of that living in a sinless paradise with pure love of life, to that living in a sinful civilisation where love lacks, men despise producing food, women despise child birth and husbands over-power their wives. Apparently these curses can all be overcome though, by exercising godliness.

How were they forgiven?

I don't know that they were, but I also would not be surprised to learn that they were. Do you believe it is unimaginable that they might be heirs of heaven along with the saints?

Had they been forgiven wouldn't they have been allowed to stay in the garden?

Genesis 3:22-24 describes that it seems to be in God's wisdom that it would be quite bad for mankind to live forever when they are slaves to sin, and it becomes a recurring theme through the rest of time, that those who will rule over sin and do God's will can be forgiven and given access to the tree of life again. Revelation 2:7.

Job8 · Sep 19, 2015

directory said:
As it's described to me, original sin seems like a kind of spiritual poison that makes its victims (us, that is) inherently sinful.

Not victims but "poisoned individuals". Nobody makes you responsible for the disobedience of Adam and Eve. But you are responsible for your own sins, and you cannot honestly say that you have never sinned. So where does that leave you? Since the whole human race is in the same boat, and all are on their way to Hell, God has provided a way. Jesus Himself is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE.

Why are any of us responsible for original sin?

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