Why an eternal hell?

gradyll said:

you implied it. Scroll back and reread your posts.

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That's just not true -- When we get to the point where you are putting words in my mouth, rather than discussing what I actually said, is there much point in continuing? I have never said or implied that it is illogical to think that God could choose to eternally torment unbelievers. My argument is that nothing in the biblical record states or implies such a doctrine.

But like I said, when it gets to the point that you are deliberately misstating what I said, there isn't much more to discuss.

Nihilist420 said:

What purpose does it truly serve? Is there anything one person can do that is so horrible that they deserve an eternity of indefinite torture? No bible quotes please just opinions. The bible can be interpreted every which way and there are verses supporting both sides of either arguments. What purpose does an eternal hell serve? Or an afterlife for that matter. What do we accomplish by being alive after death, or more importantly what does god? Supposedly only humans are allowed this divine privilege. Perhaps other creations are considered inferior? Just curious what anyone thinks on the matter.

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Punishment for an egotistical, self-serving, self-worshipping, evil-natured lot.
Why not ask yourself if there is a single person who, if they had the ability to torture for an eternity, would. The answer would be a resounding yes and yet we think God is horrible because an immortal cannot die, therefore any punishment would logically be 'forever'.

The afterlife matters because that was God's intention to start with and if He is immortal, then obviously if He wanted to create something, it would therefore also be immortal. Don't forget it was we who failed, not God, in the Garden.

As to other creations (and sorry for the scripture, but it answers the question):

Ecclesiastes 3:21
(NIV1984)
21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”​

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If you knew your scriptures you would know that no one claimed that we are the only 'creation' that would be allowed this 'divine privilege'. The fact is that we just don't know everything and won't until we die (if you believe).

It's very easy to ask this question from the comfort of our homes with a/c, plenty of food, a roof, warmth, friends and family, jobs and a reasonably free and hopeful future.

Now, ask those who live in hellish conditions of poverty and starvation if they hope for something better after they die. To think that God would allow that to be all for them is ludacris and is the very purpose of an afterlife because He knew not everyone would live a comfortable one here on earth. It is up to us to fend for them and yet they still starve and die daily; but God has something more for them and "the last will be first and the first will be last".

Yes, it is very easy to be atheistic when one has everything they need or desire here on this earth, but it is passing away and we all shall face our Creator one day and we will all have to bow before Him and tell of that life and the decisions we made. Not believing it does not mean it still will not happen, just as not believing in God does not disprove or expel Him. Live as you will, but know that your life will indeed summon one sentence or the other.

And even if hell is not eternal fire, an eternal separation from the God you will witness in all His glory, at that time, will indeed be a sentence of misery in the darkness without His light.

gradyll said:

thats like saying, why would a Judge want to give the death penalty. A true Judge never WANTS to condemn, but it's their Job.

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Who gave God that job? Who's God's boss?

gradyll said:

eternal souls and Hell existed before the empirial catholic church existed...

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If the soul was eternal to begin with (which the bible doesn't say as far as I can see), why would God give eternal life to those who believe?

dollarsbill said:

Where did any of us call God cruel and vindictive?

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If God would torture anyone for a thousand years he would be cruel and vindictive, no way around it. If he is to torture anyone infinitely, then he is infinitely cruel.

The whole point here being whether or not God will judge righteously.

Boanerge said:

God AUTHORED and INVENTED Eternal Life.

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Yes. And he gives it to those who believe.

Boanerge said:

As a Consequence there is the opposite of Eternal Life. God Created Peace, as a consequence there also exists Chaos.

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What? God can't create something without also creating the opposite?

Boanerge said:

Almost every quantum physicist will tell you there is NO SUCH THING as Empty Space. There is no such thing as Nothing. Either we will exist in some kind of orderly existence of life peace and light or a disorderly existence of death chaos and darkness.

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By your own rationale, if there is such a thing as existence, there must also be non-existence. If there is life there must also be death. And sure enough, the soul that sins shall die. Not go on living in some other place.

Boanerge said:

If Jesus Christ is LIFE, yet he "died", then OBVIOUSLY life is MORE than just existence. So then Death or "nonlife" is also MORE than just "nonexistence".

If Jesus Christ is Life
and You REJECTED Jesus Christ
Then you REJECTED Life

It's as simple as that.

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Does the bible say these things? That death doesn't really exist?

holo said:

If God would torture anyone for a thousand years he would be cruel and vindictive, no way around it. If he is to torture anyone infinitely, then he is infinitely cruel.

The whole point here being whether or not God will judge righteously.

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Are you disputing that God drowned everyone but 8, and burned Sodom alive children inclusive????????

dollarsbill said:

Are you disputing that God drowned everyone but 8, and burned Sodom alive children inclusive????????

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You keep saying that like you think that it's relevant somehow. Care to explain? Do you think the death penalty is as cruel as an eternity of conscious torment?

Why not?

holo said:

If the soul was eternal to begin with (which the bible doesn't say as far as I can see), why would God give eternal life to those who believe?

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because eternal life is in contrast to eternal death, the same duration just different extremes. It is not a focus on the fact that those dying are receiving life, they are not. They are receiving death. Just at a constant rate and never completing it fully.

LemonAidStand said:

Why not?

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I will add to this.. You asked why an eternal hell. The reason i say why not. Is because there is a hell. You need a defense. So your question should also be why not..you need to show reason why there shouldnt be.. The reason for this is because who can know the mind of God.. The Creator of hell.. Nobody. In other words nobody can tell you the answer but God Himself..so you have to have an arguement based on what we can know. Wish you success with that...

gradyll said:

because eternal life is in contrast to eternal death, the same duration just different extremes. It is not a focus on the fact that those dying are receiving life, they are not. They are receiving death. Just at a constant rate and never completing it fully.

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So, when Jesus gives us eternal life, he gives us something that we will never have fully and completely? Of course, we are not going to "complete it fully", because that would mean we would die. However, the very notion of eternal death requires a complete and permanent completion of life. The opposite of eternal life, then, is not eternal torment, it is a permanent and irreversible state of death.

dies-l said:

So, when Jesus gives us eternal life, he gives us something that we will never have fully and completely? Of course, we are not going to "complete it fully", because that would mean we would die. However, the very notion of eternal death requires a complete and permanent completion of life. The opposite of eternal life, then, is not eternal torment, it is a permanent and irreversible state of death.

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the context is death, they will never have death completely. But yes life is forever so in that way, we will never have that either.....completely.

dollarsbill said:

Are you disputing that God drowned everyone but 8, and burned Sodom alive children inclusive????????

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No, I'm saying that if He did that, He did it for some ultimately good purpose, though I don't know what that purpose may be.

What would the purpose of eternal suffering be?

Russell D. Moore puts this predicament this way:

First of all, the Scripture is quite clear that hell is indeed everlasting. Jesus leaves the psychic burden intact. Yes, Scripture speaks of hell as "death" and "destruction" but defines these in terms of a place where "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Why must this go on forever?There are at least two reasons.

First, the revolt against God is more serious than we think it is. An insurrection against an infinitely worthy Creator is an infinitely heinous offense. We know something of this intuitively. This is why, in our human sentences of justice, we sentence a man to one punishment for threatening to kill his co-worker and another man to a much more severe punishment for threatening to kill the nation's president.

Second, and more important, is the nature of the punishment itself. The sinner in hell does not become morally neutral upon his sentence to hell. We must not imagine the damned displaying gospel repentance and longing for the presence of Christ. They do indeed, as in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, seek for an escape from punishment, but they are not new creations. They do not in hell love the Lord their God with heart, mind, soul, and strength.

Instead, in hell, one is now handed over to the full display of his nature apart from grace. And this nature is seen to be satanic (Jn. 8:44). The condemnation continues forever and ever, because the sin does too. Hell is the final "handing over" (Rom. 1) of the rebel to who he wants to be, and it's awful.

Attempts to navigate around the truth of hell as everlasting punishment show us something of our complicity in the Edenic sin: the substitution of human wisdom and human justice and, yes, human notions of love for the authority of God.

Yes, hell is horrifying. God deems it so. Our response to such horror should not be denial, but the fervent evangelism of the nations. Knowing the terror of it all, we should plead with people, as though Christ himself were pleading through us, "Be reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20).

As C.S. Lewis writes, "In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question: 'What are you asking God to do?' To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help?But he has done so, on Calvary. To forgive them?They will not be forgiven. To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what he does."

Hell ought to drive us not to find misplaced hopes for the lost, but to the only hope for us, and for the whole world, the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Christian gospel maintains that "the day of salvation" is now (2 Cor. 6:2), during this lifetime's temporary suspension of doom. After this, the grace of God is not extended, only his justice, and that with severity.

Jesus does indeed triumph over all things (Love wins!), making peace through the blood of his cross (Col. 1:20). But this peace doesn't mean the redemption of each individual. Instead, Jesus triumphs over his enemies, as they are defeated beneath the feet of his kingship. Yes, every tongue confessed Jesus as lord, even Satan himself (Phil. 2:9-11). This does not mean, as Jesus himself teaches, that every tongue cries out to him for salvation. Instead there is a universal recognition that Jesus has triumphed over every rival to his throne. The redeemed will love this truth; the impenitent will lament it.

Until then, we preach, we plead, we beg, we warn. Hell is awful, and unending, and completely avoidable.

May God Richly Bless You! MM

gradyll said:

the context is death, they will never have death completely. But yes life is forever so in that way, we will never have that either.....completely.

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I guess if you believe that God will never give His children eternal life completely (despite His promises), then I shouldn't be surprised that you believe that God would torment those who don't choose Him. It sounds like you just have a limited view of God's love and grace.

dies-l said:

I guess if you believe that God will never give His children eternal life completely (despite His promises), then I shouldn't be surprised that you believe that God would torment those who don't choose Him. It sounds like you just have a limited view of God's love and grace.

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life is forever so you never come to it completely but always leading up to it. Technically speaking of course. You can't have forever life and not be leading up to it.

gradyll said:

life is forever so you never come to it completely but always leading up to it. Technically speaking of course. You can't have forever life and not be leading up to it.

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You have officially lost me with your reasoning.

dies-l said:

You have officially lost me with your reasoning.

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if life is forever, is it reasonable to state that we have accomplished eternal life? No, not until the eternity is up.

LemonAidStand said:

I will add to this.. You asked why an eternal hell. The reason i say why not. Is because there is a hell. You need a defense. So your question should also be why not..you need to show reason why there shouldnt be.. The reason for this is because who can know the mind of God.. The Creator of hell.. Nobody. In other words nobody can tell you the answer but God Himself..so you have to have an arguement based on what we can know. Wish you success with that...

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many annihilationists don't bother with the "why's"