Why an eternal hell?

Timothew said:

Finally!

Now we can continue to believe that the wages of sin is death, and not eternal torment in hell without interference from naysayers. I'm glad that's over!

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the naysayers are not the eternal tormentalists, believe you me!

holo said:

As far as I can see, and do correct me if I'm wrong, there are two verses in the bible that appear to say that the unsaved will be suffering eternally. True, "hell" is mentioned many times, but it's not defined in those verses. I don't think it's reasonable to make a doctrine out of two verses, especially when that doctrine seems to directly contradict literally thousand of other verses.

Do you have sources for this? As for my belief that eternal torture is a foreign concept to judaism, I actually can't give you any sources, I can't remember the places I read about it. Also, I've heard jews pointing it out. But it's definitely something I'd like to learn more about. It would be very strange indeed if Jesus was the one to introduce the concept of eternal torture for the unsaved. It would be by far the most radical thing he ever taught.

Exactly. If he took our punishment, then he took our punishment. If I take the blame for some murderer I wouldn't get a completely different sentence.

And brother and redeemer an righteous judge and so forth. Our torturer, though? The worst, most relentless and merciless(!) torturer you can imagine?

Do you think anybody deserve eternal suffering?

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actually ET is all over the bible, mainly from Jesus mouth himself.

ebia said:

Are we talking about modern Jews or 2nd temple Jews?

"the apaocrapha" isn't a category outside Christian thinking so which specific books are we talking about?

4 Maccabees? Very hellenised and stoic. roughly contempory with the NT
2 Esdras? Similar, but post Temple destruction.
Judith?
Or what?

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For instance, the Ascension of Isaiah, composed in Greek in the late 1st century, uses the word Sheol and speaks of it as an underworld similar to the Judaic view of that time. (Yes, even though it was in Greek, the name Sheol was preserved.) The Book of Enoch (also called 1 Enoch), written in the late 2nd century BCE in Aramaic, also used the word Sheol, but spoke of it not only as an underworld realm but as a place from which forces of destruction emanated. There is a bit of an apocalyptical element in it which compares with the usage in Revelation.

here are some more references to hell in the apocrypha that Jews read and accepted as history...



Additions to Daniel 1:66
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever: far he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us from the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the furnace and burning flame: even out of the midst of the fire hath he delivered us.

gradyll said:

For instance, the Ascension of Isaiah, composed in Greek in the late 1st century, uses the word Sheol and speaks of it as an underworld similar to the Judaic view of that time. (Yes, even though it was in Greek, the name Sheol was preserved.) The Book of Enoch (also called 1 Enoch), written in the late 2nd century BCE in Aramaic, also used the word Sheol, but spoke of it not only as an underworld realm but as a place from which forces of destruction emanated. There is a bit of an apocalyptical element in it which compares with the usage in Revelation.

here are some more references to hell in the apocrypha that Jews read and accepted as history...

Additions to Daniel 1:66
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever: far he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us from the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the furnace and burning flame: even out of the midst of the fire hath he delivered us.

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So we are talking very hellenised Jewish books. You speak as though all 1st century Jews were in the same theological space.

It would help if you gave quotations or precise references (as you did with the Daniel) so we can see exactly what we are talking about.

Not sure what you are trying to prove with the song of the three except "Hades" being used for "Sheol". What sort of "hell" the author had I'm mind isn't given.

ebia said:

So we are talking very hellenised Jewish books. You speak as though all 1st century Jews were in the same theological space.

It would help if you gave quotations or precise references (as you did with the Daniel) so we can see exactly what we are talking about.

Not sure what you are trying to prove with the song of the three except "Hades" being used for "Sheol". What sort of "hell" the author had I'm mind isn't given.

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here is another quote from assention of isaiah:

19. And after this the adversary envied Him and roused the children of Israel against Him, not knowing who He was, and they delivered Him to the king, and crucified Him, and He descended to the angel (of Sheol).

verse 19,

here is the context

The Ascension of Isaiah

again it sounds like these were Jews that were possibly christian at the time of writing....

gradyll said:

here is another quote from assention of isaiah:

19. And after this the adversary envied Him and roused the children of Israel against Him, not knowing who He was, and they delivered Him to the king, and crucified Him, and He descended to the angel (of Sheol).

verse 19,

here is the context

The Ascension of Isaiah

again it sounds like these were Jews that were possibly christian at the time of writing....

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I've no idea what you're trying to show from it.

gradyll said:

actually ET is all over the bible, mainly from Jesus mouth himself.

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Did Jesus ever say that the lost would be eternally tormented?
Please, post the verse where He says this.

"And so Jesus said unto them, verily the lost will be eternally tormented."

I just can't find this in any bible.

Timothew said:

Did Jesus ever say that the lost would be eternally tormented?
Please, post the verse where He says this.

"And so Jesus said unto them, verily the lost will be eternally tormented."

I just can't find this in any bible.

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Maybe threads that go around in frustrating, never ending, circles are an actual experience of eternal torment.

ebia said:

Maybe threads that go around in frustrating, never ending, circles are an actual experience of eternal torment.

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Gradyll said that "ET is all over the bible, mainly from Jesus mouth himself."

This would end and I would proclaim the love of Jesus's Torment to the world if Gradyll would post the verse that says "Jesus said the lost will be eternally tormented".

On the other hand, if no such verse is found, this should end. No one should be saying "Jesus says the lost will be eternally tormented".

Jesus said that the unrepentant will perish. I can post the verse quoting Him saying this. It is cut and dried. Luke 13:3
“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Jesus even said it again in Luke 13:5. I guess nobody believed Him the first time.

But you are correct. Will the words of Jesus Christ Himself saying what we are saying convince Gradyll and his buddies? Not a chance in hell.

ebia said:

Maybe threads that go around in frustrating, never ending, circles are an actual experience of eternal torment.

Click to expand...

Timothew said:

Did Jesus ever say that the lost would be eternally tormented?
Please, post the verse where He says this.

"And so Jesus said unto them, verily the lost will be eternally tormented."

I just can't find this in any bible.

Click to expand...

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

FOREVER AND EVER


"into the age of the ages"
Translated as "forever and ever"; "forevermore"

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
"to whom be the glory forevermore, Amen" (Gal. 1:5)
"Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Phil. 4:20)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
"The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (2 Tim. 4:18).
"equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Heb. 13:21).
"Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet. 4:11).
"and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 1:6).
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades," (Rev. 1:18).
"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 4:9).
"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne," (Rev. 4:10).
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever," (Rev. 5:13).
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 7:12).
"and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer," (Rev. 10:6).
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever,'" (Rev. 11:15).
"And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 15:7).
"And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever," (Rev. 22:5).

Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every instance of the phrase shows eternality.

But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.

Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

FROM

http://carm.org/look-phrase-forever-and-ever

ebia said:

I've no idea what you're trying to show from it.

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he decended to an angel, an angel over hell. What other angel would we decend to?

gradyll said:

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

FOREVER AND EVER


"into the age of the ages"
Translated as "forever and ever"; "forevermore"

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
"to whom be the glory forevermore, Amen" (Gal. 1:5)
"Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Phil. 4:20)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
"The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (2 Tim. 4:18).
"equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Heb. 13:21).
"Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet. 4:11).
"and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 1:6).
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades," (Rev. 1:18).
"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 4:9).
"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne," (Rev. 4:10).
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever," (Rev. 5:13).
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 7:12).
"and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer," (Rev. 10:6).
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever,'" (Rev. 11:15).
"And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 15:7).
"And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever," (Rev. 22:5).

Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every instance of the phrase shows eternality.

But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.

Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

FROM

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

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So, Are you ready to admit that there is no verse in the bible that shows Jesus saying "The lost will be eternally tormented"?
You posted all of these verses which don't say "Jesus said, 'the lost will be eternally tormented'", Do you want to also post all of the other verses in the bible that don't say "Jesus said, 'the lost will be eternally tormented'"?
I wish you would, because it proves my point.

gradyll said:

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

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As the verse says, "burn up." Not "burn and burn and burn without ever acutally get combusted."

gradyll said:

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

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Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment. Also, the original word there is Gehenna, not hell.

gradyll said:

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Click to expand...

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment.

gradyll said:

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Click to expand...

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment.

gradyll said:

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Click to expand...

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment. Though a death sentence is eternal, it will last forever.

gradyll said:

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

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The fire may be eternal, the soul isn't. The saved soul will GET eternal life. As Jesus said, fear not the world but rather Him who can destroy your body AND your soul in Gehenna. Jesus doesn't seem to be saying that only the body will be destroyed.

gradyll said:

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

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Yes, and those verses also say that death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you think anybody deserves to be tortured forever?

One reason why is because when Adam sinned he was born again into the family of the devil. His only desire was to do evil. How would you like a Hilter or some madman that wants to kill all the time running loose and can never die. In the spirit they have to be locked up so they don't destroy everything. Hell is a place to make sure they don't get out of control and pay for their sins. Jesus paid the price so we don't have to. He went to Hell so we don't have to. He bore all the sins of mankind and paid for it in Hell for 3 days and 3 nights. Hell was never made for Mankind. It was created for the Devil and the Fallen Angels only.

Timothew said:

So, Are you ready to admit that there is no verse in the bible that shows Jesus saying "The lost will be eternally tormented"?
You posted all of these verses which don't say "Jesus said, 'the lost will be eternally tormented'", Do you want to also post all of the other verses in the bible that don't say "Jesus said, 'the lost will be eternally tormented'"?
I wish you would, because it proves my point.

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Jesus called it "everlasting punishment." Same thing. So what if it's not the same exact words as "eternally tormented."

holo said:

As the verse says, "burn up." Not "burn and burn and burn without ever acutally get combusted."

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment. Also, the original word there is Gehenna, not hell.

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment.

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment.

Doesn't say that hell is eternal torment. Though a death sentence is eternal, it will last forever.

The fire may be eternal, the soul isn't. The saved soul will GET eternal life. As Jesus said, fear not the world but rather Him who can destroy your body AND your soul in Gehenna. Jesus doesn't seem to be saying that only the body will be destroyed.

Yes, and those verses also say that death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Do you think anybody deserves to be tortured forever?

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Mattew 25:41, 46

read them again

Timothew said:

So, Are you ready to admit that there is no verse in the bible that shows Jesus saying "The lost will be eternally tormented"?
You posted all of these verses which don't say "Jesus said, 'the lost will be eternally tormented'", Do you want to also post all of the other verses in the bible that don't say "Jesus said, 'the lost will be eternally tormented'"?
I wish you would, because it proves my point.

Click to expand...

matthew 25:41, 46 read them again

StrangeL0ve said:

Seems excessive. There is no circumstance where finite crimes should be punished with infinite punishments. It can never be just.

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you can't use a word like NEVER with an infinite God.

gradyll said:

matthew 25:41, 46 read them again

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I could read them a million times and they still won't say what you claim they do.