Why an eternal hell?

GrizzlyMonKeH · Jul 24, 2012

"Aoinas ton aionon" (forever and ever, into infinity) modifies the word "olethron" (punishment). It means, literally, in the original Ancient Greek, eternal punishment.

I am giving you the original Greek phrases in the New Testament used to describe Hell. If you still cannot accept this argument, I would expect you to present more evidence in your favor than your sloppy, hasty generalization of "common sense" from our English translations.

Timothew · Jul 24, 2012

GrizzlyMonKeH said:
"Aoinas ton aionon" (forever and ever, into infinity) modifies the word "olethron" (punishment). It means, literally, in the original Ancient Greek, eternal punishment.

I am giving you the original Greek phrases in the New Testament used to describe Hell. If you still cannot accept this argument, I would expect you to present more evidence in your favor than your sloppy, hasty generalization of "common sense" from our English translations.

That is not what aionas ton aionion means. It means age of the age.

dies-l · Jul 24, 2012

GrizzlyMonKeH said:
"Aoinas ton aionon" (forever and ever, into infinity) modifies the word "olethron" (punishment). It means, literally, in the original Ancient Greek, eternal punishment.

I am giving you the original Greek phrases in the New Testament used to describe Hell. If you still cannot accept this argument, I would expect you to present more evidence in your favor than your sloppy, hasty generalization of "common sense" from our English translations.

But what you are saying doesn't rebut any argument that I have made. Hell may be eternal, but conscious torment is not.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

dies-l said:
My views do not hinge on whether aion means "eternal" or "age". They are based on the most common sense understanding of the words death and destruction, which do not imply in any way, shape, or form eternal torment.

how do you know destruction and death are not eternal just by their definitions? Aion has afected your understanding and you don't even know it.

drow13f · Jul 24, 2012

gradyll said:
I don't have a problem with your views either, believe what you will.

but I had a question....

no one in the OT was saved huh?

Not until Jesus rose from the dead. They were in paradise which is a holding place like hell. The weren't in the presence of God they were in Abrahams bossom. Jesus died and became our high priest and you see in Revelations that He is in the holy of holies in heaven as our high priest bringing the offering of blood (His blood) to the mercy seat of the Ark in heaven.

I believe they are saved now by faith in the messiah and God's sacrifice (who had yet to come), but there wasn't a path to redemption until Jesus died on the cross. They knew through His promises that there would be redemption.

createdtoworship · Jul 24, 2012

drow13f said:
Not until Jesus rose from the dead. They were in paradise which is a holding place like hell. The weren't in the presence of God they were in Abrahams bossom. Jesus died and became our high priest and you see in Revelations that He is in the holy of holies in heaven as our high priest bringing the offering of blood (His blood) to the mercy seat of the Ark in heaven.

I believe they are saved now by faith in the messiah and God's sacrifice (who had yet to come), but there wasn't a path to redemption until Jesus died on the cross. They knew through His promises that there would be redemption.

but it's still salvation, and a plan of salvation. A plan of salvation means that ultimately they are saved. and they are. So it is innacurate to say there was no plan of salvation in the old testament.

drow13f · Jul 25, 2012

being jewish didnt save them. Following the law didn't save them, and you can't be saved by the old covenant. therefore there was no path to salvation in the old covenant. Did people from the old covenant get saved? not through the old covenant, but through the new covenant. I think you just like to argue don't ya lol

createdtoworship · Jul 25, 2012

drow13f said:
being jewish didnt save them. Following the law didn't save them, and you can't be saved by the old covenant. therefore there was no path to salvation in the old covenant. Did people from the old covenant get saved? not through the old covenant, but through the new covenant. I think you just like to argue don't ya lol

did they get saved or not? then it was a plan of salvation. What your saying is that it was not God's plan. God always has a plan. He's God.

drow13f · Jul 25, 2012

gradyll said:
did they get saved or not? then it was a plan of salvation. What your saying is that it was not God's plan. God always has a plan. He's God.

I want you to please look over my posts and show me where I said that God did not have a plan. What I did say is that the Old covenant was not set up to save anybody.

And another question. How do you delete these posts? lol I kinda want to take my name out of this 20 page mess. Christian forums aren't what I thought they would be

Timothew · Jul 25, 2012

drow13f said:
I want you to please look over my posts and show me where I said that God did not have a plan. What I did say is that the Old covenant was not set up to save anybody.

And another question. How do you delete these posts? lol I kinda want to take my name out of this 20 page mess. Christian forums aren't what I thought they would be

Just edit the post to NP (for no post).

createdtoworship · Jul 25, 2012

drow13f said:
I want you to please look over my posts and show me where I said that God did not have a plan. What I did say is that the Old covenant was not set up to save anybody.

And another question. How do you delete these posts? lol I kinda want to take my name out of this 20 page mess. Christian forums aren't what I thought they would be

therefore there was no path to salvation in the old covenant>>

that was your post.

Other than that, I think you have to just go to each post and delete. Not sure though. Maybe if you delete your account they might go away completely. You have to ask the moderators or someone.

holo · Jul 31, 2012

I'm not a scholar or anything, but I've got a few points and questions. Please don't take me to be 'one of them' as it were - I'm neither a "eternal tormentalist" nor an annihilationist.

1. "Hell" appears many times in the NT, but that doesn't mean it says "hell" in the original manuscripts. For instance, Jesus didn't talk about hell on the sermon on the mount. He said Gehenna, and it seems reasonable that he referred to the actual physical place Gehenna, though in methaphor. Then "Gehenna" was translated into "hell" in many copies of the bible.

2. As far as I know, the concept of eternal punishment is nowhere to be found in the OT, which is strange if that's the fate of the vast majority of every human God has created.

3. Jesus took the punishment for our sins. If the punishment for sins is eternal torture, how can Jesus NOT be in hell as we speak?

4. The bible may mention hell (though only one or two passages seems to define it as eternal suffering - again, strange if that's indeed the fate of most people who ever lived) many times, but more than that, it keeps repeating that God will judge righteously. Personally I can't think of any person who deserves to be tortured without end. And I find it hard to believe that something or someone (God himself?) forces God to punish anyone infinitely more than they deserve.

holo · Jul 31, 2012

Been thinking about this as well: The bible often likens our relationship with God to a child's relationship with a parent. If my daughter steals some candy from me it wouldn't in any way be fair and just to beat her up. It would be unfair, and cruel. Even if I was the most perfect and flawless person who ever lived I wouldn't be justified in beating her, much less kill her. But according to much of traditional doctrine, God isn't only going to beat you up for one sin like that. He's not even going to stop at killing you. No, he's going to torture you forever and ever. Because he wants to - He is, after all, supreme and does everything according to his own free will, nothing and nobody can force God to do anything he doesn't want to do - and what he wants to do is to torture my daughter if she happens to "die in sin".

If that is true, then God can not be a righteous judge. There's no possible way to have both.

createdtoworship · Jul 31, 2012

holo said:
I'm not a scholar or anything, but I've got a few points and questions. Please don't take me to be 'one of them' as it were - I'm neither a "eternal tormentalist" nor an annihilationist.

1. "Hell" appears many times in the NT, but that doesn't mean it says "hell" in the original manuscripts. For instance, Jesus didn't talk about hell on the sermon on the mount. He said Gehenna, and it seems reasonable that he referred to the actual physical place Gehenna, though in methaphor. Then "Gehenna" was translated into "hell" in many copies of the bible.

many concepts are not in the originals, the trinity, angels, etc etc. Rather they have a different transliteration for what they are in english. Hell is english, Greek is Hades, Gehennah, Sheol, etc.

2. As far as I know, the concept of eternal punishment is nowhere to be found in the OT, which is strange if that's the fate of the vast majority of every human God has created.

sheol is found many places, and in the apocrypha many Jewish references to eternal punishment.

3. Jesus took the punishment for our sins. If the punishment for sins is eternal torture, how can Jesus NOT be in hell as we speak?

He is eternal and took the punishment upon himself physically. God could have sent sheep to hell forever to burn instead of simply sacrificing them.....but He didn't

4. The bible may mention hell (though only one or two passages seems to define it as eternal suffering - again, strange if that's indeed the fate of most people who ever lived) many times, but more than that, it keeps repeating that God will judge righteously. Personally I can't think of any person who deserves to be tortured without end. And I find it hard to believe that something or someone (God himself?) forces God to punish anyone infinitely more than they deserve.

they do deserve ET, we all do. You just set your bars too low.

Timothew · Jul 31, 2012

gradyll said:
they do deserve ET, we all do. You just set your bars too low.

They all deserve ET, eternal torment? This is what you believe?
They all deserve to be tormented, not for a hundred billion years, but billions of times more than that, for an eternity? They deserve eternal torment? Take Mr. Holo's example and elaborate on this thought please. His eight year old daughter has been perfectly loving and kind all her life. Yesterday she took a piece of candy. Last night she died. Now tell me how she deserves to be tormented in hell, the worst place in the world, for all eternity. Please don't say that this is an emotional argument, because it is what you said should happen. The fire burns her skin and it chars, but she is not allowed to die becasue she took that one piece of candy. This goes on and on, and you agree with "God" that this is what she deserves. That is one valuable piece of candy, brother.

Armistead14 · Jul 31, 2012

It should be alarming that so many thingk God's design and order is that we all deserve to be eternally tortured from birth or we all deserve eternal torture because of the sin of two people. We are born failed humans with limited reasoning in different cultures where our beliefs are form by 1000's of human factors beyond our control. Somehow we have to figure it all out in our limited human life or we face eternal torture. Even if our search for God is sincere, honest and good, you get it wrong, you still go to hell.

God is love, but if hell is true, we humans seem to have more ability to love, a child may stray from a parent, may do wrong, the parent in love may discipline, but who among us would torture our children....forever.

As stated above, if our sin equals torture for eternity, then payment for that sin would be eternal torture. The other point that God could sacrifice anyway he wanted, the bible doesn't teach that. It's like saying a mass murderers sin could be absolved by slapping his mothers hand. Our sin nature brought death, that is why Christ death paid for it. It it equaled eternal torture, then Christ would have to be eternally tortured.

holo · Jul 31, 2012

gradyll said:
many concepts are not in the originals, the trinity, angels, etc etc. Rather they have a different transliteration for what they are in english. Hell is english, Greek is Hades, Gehennah, Sheol, etc.

The question is what those terms mean in the original language and context. Hell as we know it was and still is a foreign concept to jews.

gradyll said:
sheol is found many places, and in the apocrypha many Jewish references to eternal punishment.
He is eternal and took the punishment upon himself physically. God could have sent sheep to hell forever to burn instead of simply sacrificing them.....but He didn't

But then it's not the same punishment. The punishment was laid on Him, the scriptures say. Not that a completely different and much smaller one was laid on him. He took OUR guilt, OUR blame.

gradyll said:
they do deserve ET, we all do. You just set your bars too low.

So if I tortured my daughter to death for stealing, that would be just? In fact, it would be downright merciful compared to what God would do to her. Do you really, honestly believe that she, or you for that matter, actually deserve eternal torture?

I really can't get my mind around that, because if you think that's fair, how can you say that the holocaust, for example, was not fair? Being gassed along with their family wasn't even a fraction of the suffering they actually deserved.

createdtoworship · Jul 31, 2012

holo said:
The question is what those terms mean in the original language and context. Hell as we know it was and still is a foreign concept to jews.

like I said the concept of hell is found in the apocrypha so we know they believed in ET.

But then it's not the same punishment. The punishment was laid on Him, the scriptures say. Not that a completely different and much smaller one was laid on him. He took OUR guilt, OUR blame.

IF Jesus took on eternal torture for every soul he would never have paid the price, HE WOULD STILL BE PAYING IT!

So if I tortured my daughter to death for stealing, that would be just? In fact, it would be downright merciful compared to what God would do to her. Do you really, honestly believe that she, or you for that matter, actually deserve eternal torture?

God is not only father He is our Lord and Master.

I really can't get my mind around that, because if you think that's fair, how can you say that the holocaust, for example, was not fair? Being gassed along with their family wasn't even a fraction of the suffering they actually deserved.

like I said God is our master, not friend.

Timothew · Jul 31, 2012

gradyll said:
IF Jesus took on eternal torture for every soul he would never have paid the price, HE WOULD STILL BE PAYING IT!

That's one of the many reasons why we don't believe in eternal tormentalism.

Timothew · Jul 31, 2012

Jesus' death on the cross paid the price of death that we owe for our sins.
The wages of sin is death. Jesus' death paid for that, for all of us.

Why an eternal hell?

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