Why ... (2)

Davian · Sep 21, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
So I take it you are fine not knowing what they are made from, or whether gravity the force is able to be tested, or observed? Again, not the effect of it but the force itself.

The effect is the force. I think you what you confused is the source of gravity with what is described as gravity. Your semantics were over the line on that one.

Oncedeceived said:
No, it isn't. I'm am saying that even though you are unable to explain it you are fine with it, which means that you accept in your presuppositions that it isn't necessary to have them explained.

Any presuppositions I may make are tentative, and subject to falsification and correction with the introduction of more detailed information. Unlike religion.

Oncedeceived said:
Seriously, do you think that I am not aware of what Wikipedia says about it?

That is not how your questions were phrased.

Oncedeceived said:
No evidence there either.

None for gods.

Oncedeceived said:
Yes, Judaism.

So, if stories of miracles and martyrdom are not unique to your religion, perhaps you should not use them as evidence.

Davian · Sep 21, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
...
Davian....forget the god of the gaps. Forget it. Stop. Forget it. Not where I am going with this.

Then you stop it. Can't explain gravity? My God did it. Can't explain Logic? My God did that, too.

Be more forthright with where you want this thread to go.

Oncedeceived said:
I think that God does explain the intelligence of the universe, yes. I can explain that in my worldview. How do you explain the laws of logic in yours?

Laws are scientific generalizations based on factual observations. (dictionary.com). We observe what works "logically" and call it logic.

How does "God" (your particular god) explain the intelligence of the universe, outside of your worldview?

Provide an example of where "God" is factored in with our current scientific understanding of human intelligence.

Davian · Sep 21, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
I would say it is quite apparent that is not the case when the majority of Christians claim a relationship with Him.

Argument from popularity fallacy?

Is there one that can provide, in an objective manner, that they have a relationship with something outside of their own imagination?

Aman777 · Sep 21, 2013

Davian said:
How does "God" (your particular god) explain the intelligence of the universe, outside of your worldview?

Dear Davian, There are two types of intelligence. One is natural or found in all animals and is within every creature made from the water. The other type of intelligence is far superior to the intelligence of animals, since Human intelligence is like God's. Genesis 3:22 This includes the ability to know both good and evil which NO animal knows.

Provide an example of where "God" is factored in with our current scientific understanding of human intelligence.

Godless Science excludes God's Truth from it's views. Thus it remains backward in it's knowledge. A good example is that Genesis tells us that we live in a Multiverse, but today's Science is currently trying to understand what a Multiverse even is.

Evols, not knowing that we live in a Multiverse, MUST change their flawed thinking since their views are based on incomplete untrue false assumptions of Godless men who cannot read and comprehend the Truth of Genesis. The reason is that Humans did NOT evolve from Apes, but came from another Universe, within our Multiverse. The world of Adam was totally destroyed in the Flood. That's God's Truth.

In Love,
Aman

Davian · Sep 21, 2013

Aman777 said:
<spam deleted>

What's an "evols"?

Oncedeceived · Sep 21, 2013

Cheeky Monkey said:
Not sure. I often wonder about things like Pi. On the one hand Pi is real thing but it doesn't exist in nature but then again it only exists because of rules of mathematics that come from our brains which are material. It's a fun philosophical puzzle to think about but for most things it really doesn't matter. The only stuff we can observe and test are material, if there's an immaterial it exists but it's in our imaginations.

So mathematics rules have come from our brains? I wonder how you explain then how a universe that was formed long before man came on the scene is explained perfectly by mathematics? It seems to me that mathematics were a concept that had everything to do with the universe from the beginning.

If mathematics are a man made representation of the concept of numbers/logic how would that man made representation describe the universe so perfectly? Why does the universe reflect the mathematical equations that mankind imagined?

Oncedeceived · Sep 21, 2013

Davian said:
The effect is the force. I think you what you confused is the source of gravity with what is described as gravity. Your semantics were over the line on that one.

Gravity is a force pulling together all matter. Gravity = force which pulls (effect) all matter. The effect is the result of the force upon matter. So the force is not the effect.

Any presuppositions I may make are tentative, and subject to falsification and correction with the introduction of more detailed information. Unlike religion.

So you believe that a naturalistic origin of the universe is tentative?

None for gods.

Or for the elementary particles called gravitons.

So, if stories of miracles and martyrdom are not unique to your religion, perhaps you should not use them as evidence.

Is there outside sources to confirm the miracles of those other religions?

Oncedeceived · Sep 21, 2013

Davian said:
Argument from popularity fallacy?

No, it is a claim that most Christians will agree. The validity of the claim is not what I was referring to. Validity aside, Christians claim a personal relationship with God.

Is there one that can provide, in an objective manner, that they have a relationship with something outside of their own imagination?

Self delusion? Is there an objective manner in which you can show that you are not deluding yourself that God does not exist?

Oncedeceived · Sep 21, 2013

Davian said:
You said, "...I am trying to show that in a purely materialist worldview it is inconsistent to claim that all things in the universe must be material since the very laws of the universe are immaterial. This shows the worldview refutes itself."

By what set of criteria, a definition, do you determine what you mean by "immaterial"? It is a strawman "materialist worldview" as it appears to use definitions of "material" and "immaterial" of your own liking.

How would the laws of logic arise in a material universe? What evidence do you provide to show that they are produced from known materials of the universe?

You don't know where this god is? What is the difference between a god that cannot be found, and one that isn't there?

To you nothing. To the Christian we know that He is in a place called Heaven. Where is that...I don't know.

Sure. Can you present it in the form of a testable, falsifiable hypothesis?
Not the subject, the person. Can you provide an example where a "materialist" - a scientist - claimed that evidence was not necessary in support of their scientific theory?

Every scientist that claims that there is a universal common ancestor. Every scientist that claims an evolutionary pathway that is not reflected in the fossil evidence. There is no evidence that can be tested or observed for a known plant or animal in transition past the species level in millions of years.

Oncedeceived · Sep 21, 2013

Davian said:
Then you stop it. Can't explain gravity? My God did it. Can't explain Logic? My God did that, too.

Be more forthright with where you want this thread to go.

I think I have. I have said that there is no evidence that shows that the forces of nature are produced by the material of the universe. I have said that logic is not of a material produced by the universe.

Laws are scientific generalizations based on factual observations. (dictionary.com). We observe what works "logically" and call it logic.

How do we know they are based on factual observations if we have no way to determine truth? If there is no absolute laws of logic, logic can not represent truth. It can never be relied upon if there is no meaning to logic other than what we generally believe to be factual.

How does "God" (your particular god) explain the intelligence of the universe, outside of your worldview?

Why would it matter?

Provide an example of where "God" is factored in with our current scientific understanding of human intelligence.

If you stand upon the notion that non-intelligent processes were the only processes available, how does intelligence arise from no intelligence?

Sayre · Sep 21, 2013

Aman777 said:
Godless Science excludes God's Truth from it's views. Thus it remains backward in it's knowledge. A good example is that Genesis tells us that we live in a Multiverse, but today's Science is currently trying to understand what a Multiverse even is.

Evols, not knowing that we live in a Multiverse, MUST change their flawed thinking since their views are based on incomplete untrue false assumptions of Godless men who cannot read and comprehend the Truth of Genesis. The reason is that Humans did NOT evolve from Apes, but came from another Universe, within our Multiverse. The world of Adam was totally destroyed in the Flood. That's God's Truth.

In Love,
Aman

Whaaaaaa???

Where does Genesis talk about a multiverse? And since when did humans come from another universe?

rikerjoe · Sep 22, 2013

Sayre said:
Whaaaaaa???

Where does Genesis talk about a multiverse? And since when did humans come from another universe?

Don't take it too seriously, Aman777 has a completely made up version of the bible that doesn't jive with anything. It's amusing to watch the spins, but doesn't mean much...

Sayre · Sep 22, 2013

rikerjoe said:
Don't take it too seriously, Aman777 has a completely made up version of the bible that doesn't jive with anything. It's amusing to watch the spins, but doesn't mean much...

Every forum has them - the token person who puts the mental back in fundamental .

Archaeopteryx · Sep 22, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
I would say it is quite apparent that is not the case when the majority of Christians claim a relationship with Him.

A relationship based on faith.

Oncedeceived · Sep 22, 2013

Archaeopteryx said:
A relationship based on faith.

The relationship comes first and then comes faith.

Oncedeceived · Sep 22, 2013

Loudmouth said:
I am saying God could plant fingerprints at crime scenes, separately create species who fall into a nested hierarchy, or create the universe last Thursday complete with a false history and false memories. God is supposedly omnipotent, so obviously he can do anything.

The question is why would he? Out of all the possible combinations of features between separately created species, why limit yourself to ONLY the combinations that would be consistent with evolution? Why?

I don't know why you can't understand that God created a way for life forms to adaptation and change for the survival of those creatures. Those life forms evolved and changed aided by the mechanisms that were instilled by Him. We see the result of that in our discoveries. Man then claimed that rather than God who created and instilled this ability in His creatures, it was a mindless naturalistic process. The reason it works is that the information is there, it is just man that is doing the describing. That is why the ToE has had to "evolve" itself in the face of challenges and anomalies that present themselves in the new discoveries.

Kellyvee · Sep 22, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
The relationship comes first and then comes faith.

Do you think faith is a virtue? if so why?

TLK Valentine · Sep 22, 2013

Oncedeceived said:
I don't know why you can't understand that God created a way for life forms to adaptation and change for the survival of those creatures. Those life forms evolved and changed aided by the mechanisms that were instilled by Him. We see the result of that in our discoveries. Man then claimed that rather than God who created and instilled this ability in His creatures, it was a mindless naturalistic process. The reason it works is that the information is there, it is just man that is doing the describing. That is why the ToE has had to "evolve" itself in the face of challenges and anomalies that present themselves in the new discoveries.

According to extinction statistics, 99.9% of the mechanisms instilled by God were a failure.

And according to Christian mythos, 100% of them were unnecessary, as God allegedly designed the universe as a death-free paradise.

Neither of these are ringing endorsements for God.

Oncedeceived · Sep 22, 2013

Kellyvee said:
Do you think faith is a virtue? if so why?

Faith is the process in which a Christian learns to trust God. So it is a virtue in that God gives more the more faith that we show in Him.

lasthero · Sep 22, 2013

That is why the ToE has had to "evolve" itself in the face of challenges and anomalies that present themselves in the new discoveries.

Theories change in light of new data. Evolution is not unique in this.

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