Who wants to pray for the MP with me?

Michael the Iconographer said:

I am scandalized every time I hear the mainstream press refer to the EP as the leader of the Worlds Orthodox Christians.

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When Catholics and Protestants don't understand the ecclesiology of the Orthodox AFTER we explain it to them, how do you expect journalists to?

Brother, I am not trying to let you have it, and I certainly do not approach the matter as a "Greek". I know you hate nationalism in Orthodoxy, and believe me, I am right there beside you on that count.

My main concern about your post is that you keep bringing politics into a matter I am trying to keep out. Furthemore, I am afraid a lot in the EP vs Moscow struggle does stem from nationalism and we should be extra careful not to fall in that trap.

Finally, I urge you again to reconsider your words concerning the current Patriarch. I have met him, and my spiritual father knows him extremely well, and you are way off the mark in your assessment. As for forming relations with heretics, it would have been wonderful if the problems the Patriarchate is facing became exposed through Orthodox intervention, but sadly this is not the case. Greece and Russia have turned their back on the Patriarchate, Greece out of growing secularization and the efforts of the previous archbishop and Russia because it is favouring the case of Russian primacy.

In the meantime, the birthplace of Orthodox civilization is DYING. That is a shame on ALL our heads. Especially considering by council the First in honour is still there.

Vasileios said:

In the meantime, the birthplace of Orthodox civilization is DYING. That is a shame on ALL our heads. Especially considering by council the First in honour is still there.

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The birthplace of Orthodox civilization? Umm last I remember, Orthodox civilization was born in Jerusalem, not Byzantium. Last I checked the Apostles spread from Jerusalem to the rest of the world, not from Byzantium. Byantine culture might have taken what was in infancy and allowed it to flower in advanced civilization of the day, but to say Orthodox civilization was born in Byantium is erroneous.

As for the comment on my HATING Orthodox nationalism, hate is a very strong word. I do not HATE anything. I gravely dislike it, think it is out of place, think it is unOrthodox, think it is inherently wrong and think those who are Orthodox nationalists need to change their ways because they are divinding the Church in America, but I do not HATE it.

Orthodoxy was born in Jerusalem. Orthodox civilization certainly was born in Constantinople. Or to be perfectly accurate was centred in Constantinople.

Vasileios said:

Brother, I am not trying to let you have it, and I certainly do not approach the matter as a "Greek". I know you hate nationalism in Orthodoxy, and believe me, I am right there beside you on that count.

My main concern about your post is that you keep bringing politics into a matter I am trying to keep out. Furthemore, I am afraid a lot in the EP vs Moscow struggle does stem from nationalism and we should be extra careful not to fall in that trap.

Finally, I urge you again to reconsider your words concerning the current Patriarch. I have met him, and my spiritual father knows him extremely well, and you are way off the mark in your assessment. As for forming relations with heretics, it would have been wonderful if the problems the Patriarchate is facing became exposed through Orthodox intervention, but sadly this is not the case. Greece and Russia have turned their back on the Patriarchate, Greece out of growing secularization and the efforts of the previous archbishop and Russia because it is favouring the case of Russian primacy.

In the meantime, the birthplace of Orthodox civilization is DYING. That is a shame on ALL our heads. Especially considering by council the First in honour is still there.

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I don't think that is true at all. Russia has spoken out against the ecumenism practiced by the EP... I mean for all it's worth, many under the EP has spoken out against the ecumenism by the EP... still it continues. I don't think the negativity should be too surprising. The MP has been a lot more straight forward on his stand on ecumenism.
Personally I think the EP probably has a bit too much on his plate. He doesn't only have the Greeks and the byzantine style, he has many, many parishes that are slavic (many who use solely slavonic), a fair share who don't know where they are anymore... slavic or byzantine... Some that are having a very large identity crisis, are pressured by Moscow (Met. Kyril moreso than the patriarch himself... a bit of a case of the left hand doesnt' know what the right hand does) and the EP is nowhere to be found.
The MP is far from flawless but I think my personal view is that the EP doesn't come across as a strong leader in comparison to the MP. It's nothing personal and I realize the situation in Turkey is far from reasonable. However, that's not the time to be buddying up to the pope or any other Christian leader for that matter. You've gotta have it straight in your own nest first. If not, the pope is gonna eat you for lunch and have Gucci make shoes out of your skin.

I wasn't thinking of the Russian Patriarch when I said Russia, although that is a two-way relationship. However, in regards to your other points, I have not seen Orthodoxy compromised. I am not overly excited to see the Pope holding hands with the EP but I cannot say that I have felt the integrity of the Church being compromised.

If I have to find flaws in the patriarch they are two: He is too trusting and he is not an excellent judge of characters. A bad mix if you consider it. But there is never for a second the chance he will compromise the Orthodox faith.

He is very aware of the responsibility of his See, unlike his predecessor in the 70s Athenagoras. He is also very aware to preserve what he has been given, and that is the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Vasileios said:

I wasn't thinking of the Russian Patriarch when I said Russia, although that is a two-way relationship. However, in regards to your other points, I have not seen Orthodoxy compromised. I am not overly excited to see the Pope holding hands with the EP but I cannot say that I have felt the integrity of the Church being compromised.

If I have to find flaws in the patriarch they are two: He is too trusting and he is not an excellent judge of characters. A bad mix if you consider it. But there is never for a second the chance he will compromise the Orthodox faith.

He is very aware of the responsibility of his See, unlike his predecessor in the 70s Athenagoras. He is also very aware to preserve what he has been given, and that is the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

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Ok, I think I understand your view a bit better now. I think the problem that many find with the EP hanging out with the pope is that it gives a preception (possibly a wrong one too) that the faith is at risk of being compromised. When the EP website covers the visit with the Pope at a much greater extent than any other visit he makes... it gives a bit of the creepy crawlies.
When the MP buddies up to Putin it doesn't give the same preception (although we should probably run for our lives... ).
I mean in all fairness, we're called to come taste and see (not to read the stack of documents ).
And yes, I hear the too trusting and not an excellent judge of character from many others as well. I also hear humble, attentive but also rather political. There's a lot of things brewing in Europe between the MP and slavic parishes under the EP and right now I see MP bishops getting more support from Moscow than what the bishops under the EP are getting from the EP.

Khaleas said:

You've gotta have it straight in your own nest first. If not, the pope is gonna eat you for lunch and have Gucci make shoes out of your skin.

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Being Bavarian in origin, first he will get you so drunk on Hefeweizen, Dunkelweizen, Doppelbock or Weizenbock that you don't even know he is eating you for lunch!

I am sorry to disagree with you all in ethnicity but it was part of what kept Orthodoxy alive in all countries who were Orthodox... I do not go for that that ethnicity should be kept seperate maybe it does not work for America and who cares really if it does or not in the New world... But as far as our countries if it was not for our ethnicity the Latinization would have been a sure thing... That is what I think and as far as Greece been against EP that is absurd and full of hot air... We are even paying their salaries in Constantinople... Sorry to disagree with Vassilios but Christodoulos was not "against" EP Barth... rather the opposite and his present statemtments have sown that to be the case.... sadly the man cannot find peace even in the grave .... I agree that the EP has made wrong decisions about Greece and the New lands ... and other decisions in China, Hong Kong, and Indonesia to name a few... I also agree with Khaleas about "grabing" more than what he is entittled to do.... Still though I do not see the outrage of Michael about him.... By nagging things are not going to change... neither he (EP) will accept the autocephaly of OCA because it will mean to underestimate his juristiction in GOA ...in America... so instead I think we should be praying for all Patriarchs to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit to guide our Churches... And BTW Patriarchs are not everlasting ....they are pure humans like we are with experation dates ...people. Athenagoras came and is gone. Nothing really changed to our relationship with the RC... they lifted the anathema ...big news...what can I say. Please people let us pray and rejoice for our unity in faith... politics have no place among brothers and sisters....

Actually Philothei, with respect regarding ethnicity it is the exact opposite. Latinization was avoided and Greek culture was preserved and saved because of the Church, not the other way around. The Church of course defends Greek culture, which is the culture She took and brought to fullfilment in the beginning anyway. The Church owes to the Greeks NOTHING. The Greeks owe to the Church EVERYTHING. And the exact same thing goes for all ethnicities.

As for your comments regarding the conflict between the late Archbishop and the EP, please. Let us set this aside. I know fully well your love for Christodoulos and I have no intentions of speaking ill of the man after his repose. But you are also aware that I have the exact opposite feelings, and so do a great multitude of other people in Greece, good people, and I could go on and on about the subject.

So instead of turning this into an ugly thread that bashes a hierarch or two, let us put these things behind us. All these things if it was possible, including bashing the EP. Remember, I deleted my comments sometime ago in a heartbeat and I knew for a fact every single one of them to be true.

As a last resort, even as a favour, I ask you all to please respect my personal love for the Ecumenical Patriarch and keep in mind he is a real person who has real relationships with other people, including me and my spiritual father. I can accept criticisms and of course every person is allowed to speak his own mind but I think sometimes the commentary really gets out of hand and oversteps the boundaries of decency and reverence owed at the very least to the position he holds.

Khaleas, re: Putin and his relationship with Moscow, I personally have no problem with it and at least his intervention in the ROCOR-Moscow conflict had a very positive outcome. My concern is that Putin's first priority is Russia, not the Orthodox Church and that can have problems when ethnicity gets in the way. And as we know unfortunately ethnicity DOES get in the way, on all sides.

rusmeister said:

I think the danger that Michael's concerned about would be in how the EP is perceived by the outside (non-Orthodox) world. When his place of honor is mentioned, he gets treated something like the Pope, and many people would think that he speaks for the Orthodox Church in the way the Pope speaks for the Roman Church. Nicht war, Mike?

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I think you stated that very well. And the problem is that the Ep does nothing to correct these known ill-gotten perceptions. When the MP meets with someone, the world knows that he is just representing Russia and Her Church. They may see him as a more important entity than say the Metropolitan of the OCA, becuase he is in secular terms, but no one has the misperception that he is the leader of the Orthodox world (and especially not in anyway like the Pope). Now, I am not convinced that the MP (as much as I love and rever him) would do much actively to squash such perceptions, and if he were in the same situation as the EP and responded (or failed to respond) similarily, I would equally criticize him. BUt he's not, the Patriarch of Constantinople is. And so, it is right that he is under more scruitiny in his actions.

I found nothing wrong with th eRevenna document either, but I cite my concerns above. I aslo get the feeling that Rome is trying to impose a bit of it's own concpet of primacy on the EP so as, perhaps, to legitimize Rome's concept of Her own primacy within the Church. perhaps it's not a conspiracy as much as a laziness in approaching the East. The West things of the Church in terms of triangular hierarchy with a point at the top and so they naturally look for soemtnhign similar when going to the East. the problem is that that doesn't really exist, but I don't think Rome is really interested in truly understanding this. If they were, I think they would have demanded that AT LEAST more patriarchs be present at such a convention when signing such an agreement in order to give it more legitimacy among the Orthodox World. What they don't get is that despite the fact that they (rome) looks to the EP as a kind of figure head represernting the Orthodox Church, that's not the reality. Outside of his jurisidcitions he really doesn't have any de facto relevance, anymore than the MP does to the Greek Churches in the US.

Now, should we have a more central figure (not like the modern pope but like the early Patriarch of Rome when it was truly Orthodox)? I think so.. in the same way that I think we should have world peace and that our government should not lie about things etc. But that's not the reality and so right now, such a design does more to confuse the non-Orthodox world than good.

Xpy

Actually Philothei, with respect regarding ethnicity it is the exact opposite. Latinization was avoided and Greek culture was preserved and saved because of the Church, not the other way around. The Church of course defends Greek culture, which is the culture She took and brought to fullfilment in the beginning anyway. The Church owes to the Greeks NOTHING. The Greeks owe to the Church EVERYTHING. And the exact same thing goes for all ethnicities

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I do not agree as per there is historical facts esp. regarding to latinization of :Cyrpus, Achaia and Crete (where you live.!!), that prove that the main force opposing such changes were more of the state nature rather than religious. The opposition was not only of religious custom rather due to the changes inflicted on the State. (Greeks and Latins on Thirteenth Century Cyprus, Fr. Miltiathis Efthimiou, 1976) At that time specifically the "latinization" was very effective in church matters but it was the State that gave opposed it... not the other way around.. In any case I deny to see that it was ONLY our faith that uphold it... We do owe EVERYTHING to our God no disagreement there... but we should not downplay our ethnicity in the altar of globalization... either. We are all Orthodox and dinstict people that we uphold our faith to the greatest esteem and thus we "protect' it.. from all adversaries. To me there is no conflict here only for those who wish to see it that way. I thank God for our Serbian and Russian friends and fellow Orthodox and pray for them all. I also support their ethnic individuality and respect their heritage and pray for the well being of their seperate nations, no conflict there either... Globalization is a "creepy crowler" and it has no place in world Orthodoxy... Orthodoxy is the common faith we all share.. leave ethnicity alone...

As for your comments regarding the conflict between the late Archbishop and the EP, please. Let us set this aside. I know fully well your love for Christodoulos and I have no intentions of speaking ill of the man after his repose. But you are also aware that I have the exact opposite feelings, and so do a great multitude of other people in Greece, good people, and I could go on and on about the subject.

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"Great multitude of other people" please Vassilie show some respect for the truth... I think the fact of the later makaristo Christodoulos funeral proove you wrong.... please..Like you said though you wish not to talk about a dead man... I wish the Patriarch of Constantinople and the present Archbishop o fAthens would exhibit the same modesty.... needless to say some chirsitian charity... It was so upsetting hearing it on the news the way Christodoulos was "put down" for he did not "uphold" the 'proper" relationship with Phanar... Please we do give to the Phanar so much support what else shall we do let him rule our Church??? well from now on he will no question about that...

So instead of turning this into an ugly thread that bashes a hierarch or two, let us put these things behind us. All these things if it was possible, including bashing the EP. Remember, I deleted my comments sometime ago in a heartbeat and I knew for a fact every single one of them to be true.

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The point is not to delete them ... bu to support them. And sorry to say I do not see this happening.. I am upset this is hapenning but if the truth needs to come out then it should happen bilateral ...you think??

As a last resort, even as a favour, I ask you all to please respect my personal love for the Ecumenical Patriarch and keep in mind he is a real person who has real relationships with other people, including me and my spiritual father. I can accept criticisms and of course every person is allowed to speak his own mind but I think sometimes the commentary really gets out of hand and oversteps the boundaries of decency and reverence owed at the very least to the position he holds.

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I persoanally take the blame for "spilling all this out" since I thought that there is a need to be a "balance" among those who either blame or support the EP.... Although I have a problem with the EP, I would not either disrespect his position or "doubt" his orthodoxy. Forgive me Vassilie if I have again upset you with my comments but you have to understand that when it comes to Greece and its hierarchy I am not going to be blinded to that in support of Phanar... I again want to say i respect him for what he represents. If others cannot see that in what i am saying then let it be so.

Khaleas, re: Putin and his relationship with Moscow, I personally have no problem with it and at least his intervention in the ROCOR-Moscow conflict had a very positive outcome. My concern is that Putin's first priority is Russia, not the Orthodox Church and that can have problems when ethnicity gets in the way. And as we know unfortunately ethnicity DOES get in the way, on all sides.

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I cannot see how the 'ethicity' will get in the way.. but is for you to find out... Putin is a democratic leader he again will go sometime and someone else will come.. No one is 'everlasting' and he has no time to organize a coup-de-ta... so what?? Ethnicity get in the way when it becomes fanaticism.. and imperialism... (Do I need to bring examples??) We are talking about a healthy ethnicity the right that the people have to honor their country nothing more and nothing less... how can this be "dangerous" ? So if I use my language to celebrate the liturgy and not english ... wow i am dangerous...

Why must we argue.

Let us pray for both the MP and the EP ... that they may become more humble and civil towards each other, and that they may help the world's Christians to repent and to work toward theosis, which is part of our journey to God's Heavenly Kingdom.

I see no one got the humor in my last comment. LOL!

yeah Michael we are fully aware of the canibalism that exists in Germany...

Philothei said:

yeah Michael we are fully aware of the canibalism that exists in Germany...

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Beer drinking is canibalism?

Michael the Iconographer said:

Beer drinking is canibalism?

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I guess it depends on what type of beer you drink. LOL

(just kidding)

MariaRegina said:

I guess it depends on what type of beer you drink. LOL

(just kidding)

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I drink India Pale Ale that I brewed!

Michael the Iconographer said:

I drink India Pale Ale that I brewed!

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Is that German beer?

For a split second, CF told me that I had the option of starting a poll on beers. Weird?

Hey, Michael, do you want to start a poll on favorite beers?

Originally Posted by Khaleas

You've gotta have it straight in your own nest first. If not, the pope is gonna eat you for lunch and have Gucci make shoes out of your skin.
​

Being Bavarian in origin, first he will get you so drunk on Hefeweizen, Dunkelweizen, Doppelbock or Weizenbock that you don't even know he is eating you for lunch!

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I was referring to this conversation ... I thought that was your last post...