Who is Israel?

Romans 9-11. Especially Romans 11:28-29. It's clear as day.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Is Galatians 6:16 not clear? And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God.

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Yeah, you clearly do not understand that passage.


Now you must rebut my passage of Romans 11:28-29.

Xeno.of.athens said:

It never ceases to surprise me when people suggest that my understanding of Bible passages is lacking simply because it differs from their interpretation. I believe I comprehend them quite thoroughly, and it seems that my counterparts might be influenced more by church traditions or personal beliefs than by the actual text of the passages.

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Please exegete Romans 11:28-29 if that is the case. And be aware that "The Israel of God" is used only once in the whole Bible, so it is necessarily unclear unlike Romans 11:28-29, which states that there remain promises for Israel which was even confirmed by people like Chrystostom who was about as anti-Semitic as you can get.

Xeno.of.athens said:

No, I do not think that I will when there are many many commentaries available to deal with the passage.

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"When the Gentiles believed, the Jews became even more obnoxious. But even now God has not stopped calling the Gentiles. He is waiting for all of them who are to believe to come in, and then the rest of the Jews will come as well." ~Chrystostom, HOMILIES ON ROMANS 19.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Romans 19?

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That's the book or chapter or whatever. It's his commentary on Romans 11:28 taken from "Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture".

Xeno.of.athens said:

Some complain when the idea of the Christian Church being the True Israel of God is brought up; they complain that
it is replacement theology, but I ask even if it is derided as replacement theology is it also biblical theology?

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It is not "replacement" theology, it is fulfillment theology.

The NT is the fulfillment of the OT.

Good to be on the same side again.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Galatians 6:11-18 NET See what big letters I make as I write to you with my own hand! (12) Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (13) For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh. (14) But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (15) For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! (16) And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God. (17) From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body. (18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.

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Clare73 said:

It is not "replacement" theology, it is fulfillment theology.

The NT is the fulfillment of the OT.

Good to be on the same side again.

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It also leads to anti-Semitism.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Some complain when the idea of the Christian Church being the True Israel of God is brought up; they complain that it is replacement theology, but I ask even if it is derided as replacement theology is it also biblical theology?

Galatians 6:11-18 NET See what big letters I make as I write to you with my own hand! (12) Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (13) For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh. (14) But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (15) For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! (16) And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God. (17) From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body. (18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.

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The term "replacement theology" is, by and large, just pejorative. Since historic and biblical Christian teaching says nothing about anybody being replaced. Rather than a replacement, historic Christian teaching is simply that "Israel" is bigger and more inclusive, because in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. So with the grafting of Gentiles onto Israel, Israel has a bigger scope. God has always had His people, there is always a Covenant relationship--in Christ there is a New Covenant reality. That New Covenant reality is one in which all the hope and promises which the Patriarchs, Law, and the Prophets looked forward to. We are the people of that hope, the people of that promise; for we believe in the Messiah.

Nothing is replaced; but hope and promise is made full: The Christ has come, and in Him there is a great multitude of every tribe, tongue, and nation, which no one can count, gathered around the Throne and Altar.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesse Dornfeld said:

It also leads to anti-Semitism.

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Is it antisemitic to say that Jesus is the Messiah?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Is it antisemitic to say that Jesus is the Messiah?

-CryptoLutheran

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No, that's a good first step. And Jesus name was Yeshua and His mother's name is Miriam.

Christianity, before it was called Christianity, was a Jewish movement. We separate ourselves from the Jewish roots at our peril.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

It also leads to anti-Semitism.

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Not necessarily. I fully believe what Paul wrote in Galatians 3:

“Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.” (Ga 3:7 NKJV)

“28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [are] Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Ga 3:28-29 NKJV)

However, believing that truth does not cause me to be anti-Semitic.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Some complain when the idea of the Christian Church being the True Israel of God is brought up; they complain that it is replacement theology, but I ask even if it is derided as replacement theology is it also biblical theology?

Galatians 6:11-18 NET See what big letters I make as I write to you with my own hand! (12) Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (13) For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh. (14) But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (15) For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! (16) And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God. (17) From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body. (18) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.

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Your question touches upon a powerful theological and psychological matter. The concept of the Church as the True Israel reflects not just a spiritual reality, but also the human need for identity and belonging.

When we speak of "replacement theology," we must be careful not to fall into the trap of divisiveness. Instead, let us consider how God's love expands and includes, rather than excludes. The passage from Galatians beautifully illustrates that in Christ, our identity transcends physical markers or cultural traditions.

This teaching invites us to embrace a more inclusive understanding of our spiritual family. It challenges us to grow beyond our comfort zones and recognize the divine image in all of God's children, regardless of their background.

In the eyes of our Lord, "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation!" This is a call to inner transformation, to become new creations in Christ's love.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6)
Not every descendant of Abraham is the true Israel, but every true believer in OT and NT is true Israel.

That being said, the Church has not replaced Israel.
Romans 11:17 “And if some of the branches were broken off,” – that talks about Israel being broken off – “the trunk is the root of blessing.” Israel was plugged into God’s blessing, but Israel got cut off. They got cut off because of – what? – unbelief.

“And thou being a wild olive tree were grafted in.” Who’s that? Gentiles. Israel was cut off from the root of blessing because of unbelief, Gentiles were grafted in. So he says, “You were grafted in among them, and with them partakest to the root and fatness of the olive tree, but don’t get proud about it. Don’t be proud” – verse 19 – “and say, ‘The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.’ Well, because of unbelief they were broken off. And just remember, you only stand by faith. Don’t be high-minded, but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.”

Verse 24, “For if thou were cut out of the olive tree” – now watch – “and grafted in contrary to nature, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree.” Now watch, Israel was cut off and new branches, the church, grafted in. The church someday will be severed, Israel will be regrafted in. Does that tell you there is a difference between Israel and the church? Of course it does. The church has in the place of blessing been grafted in. The day will come when the Lord takes the church. Israel will be grafted back in during the tribulation, and salvation will come to Israel.

Verse 25: “I would not, brethren,” – here he explains it spiritually – “I would not, brethren, you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits;” – blindness in part has happened to Israel – “only until the fullness of the Gentiles, only until all of the branches have been grafted in the church is complete. Then,” – 26 – “then all Israel” – what? – “shall be saved.” Grafted back in again.

Now the very fact that Paul takes pains to make a distinction between the church and Israel indicates there is a distinction. And the history of Israel in the trunk of blessing is at the beginning and the end of God’s dealing, and the grafting in is somewhere in the middle. It began at Pentecost, it ends at the rapture, and Israel’s grafted back in. So the very statements of Romans 11 indicate that there is a difference, and that the church has parenthetical character.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

No, that's a good first step. And Jesus name was Yeshua and His mother's name is Miriam.

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In the dialect of Aramaic that was used in the Nazareth household, it was probably something like Yeshu', but that's just speculation. It's also not all that important.

You presented a slippery slope argument that the historic Christian doctrine "can lead to antisemitism"; but one could make the exact same argument about believing that Jesus is the Messiah.

If the issue is historic antisemitism from Christians, then one can start anywhere, why not start at the beginning? Belief that Jesus is the Messiah led to antisemitism. That is as much a valid argument as the one you are putting forward.

Of course the history of antisemitism is incredibly complex, for one, church authorities frequently were the ones speaking against antisemitic sentiments. It's not a straight line, it's a complex tapestry of different times and places. Treatment of the Jewish people varied tremendously. This doesn't excuse historic antisemitism and violence against the Jewish people; and as Christians we should be conscientious and deeply remorseful about that history and, in the present, work hard in applying the commandment of love toward our Jewish friends and neighbors, just as we are called to love all people made in God's image.

But the solution to antisemitism isn't denying the word of God and the truth of the Gospel, the solution to antisemitism is love, kindness, and respect toward our Jewish friends and neighbors.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Christianity, before it was called Christianity, was a Jewish movement. We separate ourselves from the Jewish roots at our peril.

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No one is suggesting denying our Jewish roots.

But, again, denying the word of God and the truth of the Gospel isn't the solution. Creating new, novel, and unbiblical doctrines which deny the word of God, which deny the truth of the Gospel isn't going to make us more conscientious of our Jewish roots, or make us more kind and loving toward our Jewish neighbors--it only results in a rejection of Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran