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How about the nation we have today is literal in that they are some prophecies being fulfilled. Those people who have a connection with God in Israel are spiritual. Those of us who have joined in the commonwealth are part of spiritual Israel. I believe that the nation of Israel, when the ultimate test comes, will band under the Messiah, and say...along with everyone else from all nations who have worshiped Him.Is Israel spiritual or literal?
Isaiah 25:9
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. "Lo, this is our God and we have waited for Him...".
Which one is counted might be a better question.
I asked the same here http://www.christianforums.com/t7587179/
I wont go to that forum anymore, but I figured I'd try to ask the same question
You asked a question in that link you shared and I just wanted to share this passage as the more likely answer, although much of what was spoken in the Tanakh had a dual fulfillment/meaning.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exo 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Others have done a fine job answering the other question.
I can understand why you won't go there anymore, there are many there that are just socially uncouth.
Yeah I dont really go there anymore (either to that board) or touch upon the topic too much because of the arguing that surrounds it. I was trying to be somewhat reserved in my inquiry because previously to that post an argument sprang from that topic that actually got me my first ban on the board (ever) and that after many years without such a thing. So I was approaching it in more of a reserved manner "simply asking" if this is true or could this be? Or the obvious, "can this here imply (what I knew was Christ before I started)? Usually the vultures would descend but that sure didnt happen there, it got pretty much left alone. Though, I find it often true that if you dont say what you mean but just ask questions instead, people love finding those answers and giving them to you. But if they dont approve of the answer they themselves find, they will withhold them oftentimes.
It does speak of that which is first is natural and after that spiritual, and we know there are types written beforehand that end up finding their fulfilment in Jesus Christ for example Hosea 11:1 Jesus had to be in Egypt to be called out and you can find the calling out of his son in the gospels, so if not all Israel is of Israel, what or who is Israel? Because ( below the child Israel also goes into the ladn of Israel) I just pretty much find these speaking of Christ
For example (I posted this before somewhere in a bit more length) but breifly here...
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
This was determined beforehand as the apostles say here...
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Then ofcourse this one...
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:9 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Seeems to show the same paterns that fall into Jesus Christ, the seed, the promise, the Spirit, ect. in many various ways.
Still reserved in going there though
God bless
Both.
How about the nation we have today is literal in that they are some prophecies being fulfilled. Those people who have a connection with God in Israel are spiritual. Those of us who have joined in the commonwealth are part of spiritual Israel. I believe that the nation of Israel, when the ultimate test comes, will band under the Messiah, and say...along with everyone else from all nations who have worshiped Him.
Born 1948..So,are you saying the ''state'' of Israel is literal?
You do know that it was not a ''state'' until the late 1940's?
May I ask what ''prophecies'' the ''state'' of Israel fulfills?
up til then the Israel prophecies were seen as spiritual Israel.. but once Israel came back on the scene,.. the prophecies concerning Israel had to be re-looked at to see which ones are talking about physical, and which are talking about both the physical and spiritual and then there is still the spiritual Israel prophecies.Isaiah 66:8
Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.
Yeah I dont really go there anymore (either to that board) or touch upon the topic too much because of the arguing that surrounds it. I was trying to be somewhat reserved in my inquiry because previously to that post an argument sprang from that topic that actually got me my first ban on the board (ever) and that after many years without such a thing. So I was approaching it in more of a reserved manner "simply asking" if this is true or could this be? Or the obvious, "can this here imply (what I knew was Christ before I started)? Usually the vultures would descend but that sure didnt happen there, it got pretty much left alone. Though, I find it often true that if you dont say what you mean but just ask questions instead, people love finding those answers and giving them to you. But if they dont approve of the answer they themselves find, they will withhold them oftentimes.
It does speak of that which is first is natural and after that spiritual, and we know there are types written beforehand that end up finding their fulfilment in Jesus Christ for example Hosea 11:1 Jesus had to be in Egypt to be called out and you can find the calling out of his son in the gospels, so if not all Israel is of Israel, what or who is Israel? Because ( below the child Israel also goes into the ladn of Israel) I just pretty much find these speaking of Christ
For example (I posted this before somewhere in a bit more length) but breifly here...
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
This was determined beforehand as the apostles say here...
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Then ofcourse this one...
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:9 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Seeems to show the same paterns that fall into Jesus Christ, the seed, the promise, the Spirit, ect. in many various ways.
Still reserved in going there though
God bless
Born 1948.. up til then the Israel prophecies were seen as spiritual Israel.. but once Israel came back on the scene,.. the prophecies concerning Israel had to be re-looked at to see which ones are talking about physical, and which are talking about both the physical and spiritual and then there is still the spiritual Israel prophecies.
born...by the United Nations and supported by the USA.
What prophecies does the state of Israel fulfill?
They are not Christian,they are not many nations,they do not have a Davidic ruler,they are not a great nation,they have not scattered abroad?
So,what prophecies have they fulfilled?
Where was it prophesied that Israel was to be a ''state''?
You know that it was never prophesied that Israel would be a state.
As I hope you know that it was prophesied that the Israelites would be gathered from every corner of the world where they had been scattered to return to their own land, the land that was promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It began in 1948, they got closer to total fulfillment in 1967 when they took back the Old City of David, and it is still in process. Is Israel exactly what was prophesied? Not yet. Will it be? If God has anything to do with it, yep. Has He had anything to do with it so far? Read some of the accounts of the 1948 War of Independence, the 1967 6-Day War and ask again.
The modern state of Israel does not fulfill prophecy.
THEY HAVE NOT SCATTERED ABROAD!
They are not MANY NATIONS.
They are not even a great nation or a blessing,or have even accepted Christiantiy,they do not have a Davidic ruler over them either,so how could they fulfill prophecy?
Do you read the New Testament? Read James 1:1.
Understand that even the Jews state they are not Israel but are descendents of Khazars and are from Esau/Edom.
So how can a people who are not Israel fulfill what Israel was supposed to fulfill?
They cannot be descendents of Jacob and Esau...
You know what gets me with Christians,is that it is like a brick wall.
They say Jews are Israel,when the Jews state they are not.
You cannot make modern Jews,Israel if they claim they are not.
70 AD there were scattered... and became no more until 1948.born...by the United Nations and supported by the USA.
What prophecies does the state of Israel fulfill?
They are not Christian,they are not many nations,they do not have a Davidic ruler,they are not a great nation,they have not scattered abroad?
So,what prophecies have they fulfilled?
Where was it prophesied that Israel was to be a ''state''?
Here is an interesting thing to note about Is 43:5-6 where it says 'south' that is 'teman' or 'Yeman'. Yemenite Jews are called Temanites and were one of the first groups to arrive.Jeremiah 16:14-15
New International Version (NIV)
14 However, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it will no longer be said, As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt, 15 but it will be said, As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them. For I will restore them to the land I gave their ancestors.
They had a tradition that for generations before there was even airplanes that they would be carried back to their ancient homeland "on eagles' wings".Isaiah 43:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, Give them up!
and to the south, Do not hold them back.
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth
and this is but an example...Exodus 19:4
New International Version (NIV)
4 You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles wings and brought you to myself.
70 AD there were scattered... and became no more until 1948.
They have not fulfilled all of the prophecies but there have been quite a few.
After the foundation of a State of Israel over millions Jews return and it has not stopped in 70 years. The flow in is still coming out of all the countries where they went.
Here is an interesting thing to note about Is 43:5-6 where it says 'south' that is 'teman' or 'Yeman'. Yemenite Jews are called Temanites and were one of the first groups to arrive.
They had a tradition that for generations before there was even airplanes that they would be carried back to their ancient homeland "on eagles' wings".
and this is but an example...
Re-read my post. I didn't say any of that.
Your second paragraph, I can only say that I have never heard one Jewish born Israeli say any of that. And I haven't heard even an American born Jew say those things. So I cannot comment. As to the rest of the paragraph, I'm at a loss for words. I've never heard such things. So I cannot comment, won't even try.
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