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Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

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tall73

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A. So when in the 5th century 2 historians note that most of the church keeps Sabbath this was saying that most were heretics? You are asking that the statements by those you quote are the only ones with weight. But this is assuming that your view is the correct one because it eventually became the accepted one. That again is the whole question itself. Your sources are witnesses to second (and later) generation Christianity. But then so are ours.

B. Please find a first generation statement of Sunday replacing Sabbath. There is no such thing until 116-135 as was stated by Oldsage. So in fact it can be denied.

C. In the period discussed there was only one apostle left, and he up until only arond 100 AD, and in exile to an island. Ignatius who has been noted to have been bishop during the reign of Trajan who ruled from 98-116 came at the end of the apostolic period and did mention Sunday, but also endorsed all to keep the Sabbath. There would be no need for some to object until later, during he time of Justin, etc. when in fact they began to substitute Sunday for Sabbath. And the fact that

a. most still kept Sabbath in the 5th century
b. There was enough uproar in 365 at the council of Laodicea that they to urge them not to rest from work on Sabbath.

shows that there WAS an objection.

Moreover, the notion of a unified "orthodox" manner of worship among the true church is completely against the histories too. Read the two historians of the 5th century that I linked to. They go into great detail about the fact there was no manner of

Easter
weekly assembly
mass times
fasting times
manner of fasting
manner of keeping the Sabbath

Even among those who did replace Sabbath with Sunday did not give the same reasons for it.

etc. This supposed unity of orthodoxy that we hear about often came later. Were all those then heretics who differed from the current way?

And could all of them be right? No. And we submit that the church has not always been right, and is not even now in regard to the Sabbath.
 
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PaleHorse

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Before getting into the details of your reply, let me just say that I am rather disappointed here. You asked me to provide New Testament scripture showing the Sabbath being observed, now that I've done that you are changing the argument to say "but those were for the Jews". Are you forgetting that after Christ's death that there was no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile? On this basis alone your changed argument is derailed.

pjw said:
Christ hadn't risen from the dead yet, so His Resurrection on the first day of the week could not be celebrated.
Having a celebration is one thing - but you are talking about a change to a Commandment of God, an entirely different matter. But, just for the sake of argument, I'll let this slide - for now at least.


Ok, 2 Sabbaths - doesn't affect the overall principle however.
Also, consider this; why would the Gentiles ask to be preached to on the next Sabbath if the new day of rest (Sunday in your estimation) was to be the proper day of worship for Christian Gentiles? And the fact that Paul doesn't use this grand opportunity to correct them and say "Well, actually I should preach to you tomorrow since that if the first day of the week" - but it just isn't there. Please, explain this to me. Many times in his writings Paul made it clear that he was zealous to reach people to teach them about Christ - are you telling me Paul would wait a full week to teach them something when, by your supporting of Sunday observance, he should have logically met with them the next day?


again, this is before Paul founded a Christian Church.
What does that matter? Church or no church the message is still the same. In fact, with this occuring outside of a synagogue and being non-Jewish in nature (for it was a mixed population there) only further supports my contention of Gentiles, living under grace by faith, observed the seventh-day Sabbath.
And just a quick note, you are incorrect on your assertion that no church was founded yet:
Acts 16:5 - And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
My earlier reference was Acts 16:13 (sorry for the typo, it seems I cited verse 3). So, the churches were established in verse 5 and Sabbath observance still going on in verse 13. Please explain this.


again, this was before the Christian Church was established, Paul was preaching the Gospel to the Jews and religious Gentiles, as we see that he did in other places on all days of the week.
See Acts 16:5

where did he preach? in the synagogue. to the jews and religious gentiles. not in the Church.
Again, at this point there was no difference between Jew and Gentile - so that part of your argument is moot. Also, the Christian church in Corinth was founded by Paul (see 1st and 2nd Corinithians, his epistles to them) and contained both Jews and Gentiles. Tell me, where are Paul's instructions for them to observe the first day of the week since they were a Christian church? I think it matters not that the building was a synagogue - it became their church and there is no indications whatsoever that they ever observed Sunday, only the Sabbath.
 
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Montalban

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You are partly right -with evidence, just not the conclusion.
Genesis has no great list of laws;* that's the point people have in fact been making. The 'laws' given unto Moses are not for all time, or they'd have been given to Adam!

Where 'pacts' or whatever you wish to call them are not of 'the Sabbath'.

Given that the Sabbath only becomes an issue, as you see yourself, in the time of Moses, it's obviously not for all time. It can't be. Unless you are to suppose that the laws of Moses worked retrospectively back upon Adam!

*-God's commandment to Adam not to eat from a certain tree is a law given by God to Adam. That's what a commandment is.
 
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Cliff2

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What laws do think governed Adam and those who lived until the time of Moses?

Were they allowed to steal, murder etc?
 
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Rut

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Cliff2 said:
What laws do think governed Adam and those who lived until the time of Moses?

Were they allowed to steal, murder etc?

I don`t know this but this are my own conclusion

In Adems time the was very perfect.They shouldn`t die.When Adem became a sinner he lose his perfectness and begin to be old and died.So they had in the heart what was wrong and right.So they know about murder and stealing was uncorrect.During the Moses time have human being come so far away from to be perfect so they neended laws to correct them.Do you understand what I trying to say

If we should have Sabbath from the start why didn`t God say that to Adam and Abraham when he told some laws to them

My personal thought are that don`t matter what day we have the sabbath only if we keep it and then we should know why God gave/talked about sabbath (purpose of it)
 
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Rut

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Can that person that post a website for sabbath that was a good one he/she said post it again please.Now I have time to sit and study little because I have 3 days off from work.I have tried to go back and look for it ( I thought that was page 50) but I couldn`t found it Sorry
 
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FunkyBrother

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Firstly the Sabbath day is not a day of worship, it is a day of rest:

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” (Exodus 20: 8-11)


The Sabbath day has always been Saturday. The first day of the week has always been Sunday.

Justin Martyr wrote in the 2nd century :“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ, our Savior, on the same day, rose from the dead.”

“So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,” (Colossians 2:16)

People can do as much doctrinal gymnastics as they like with the above Scripture, but it clearly says the Sabbath is not something to judge people by.


But the Sabbath day was only a picture of the true Sabbath. The true Sabbath is Jesus, and the way to rest is to enter Jesus:

“There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.” (Hebrews 4: 9-10)

The true Sabbath (JESUS) is, to cease from your own labours, your own efforts, your own activity; to cease from your own works.


If you have received Jesus then you have the Sabbath (rest) every day.



“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11: 28-30)
 
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tall73

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Sabbath keeping was near universal in the period of the early church fathers.




Evidence #1: Church Historian, Socrates Scholasticus, 5th Century
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm


Evidence #2: Church Historian, Sozomen, 5th Century

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm
The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.

Evidence #3: Apostolic Constitution , 4th Century

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5614_2026032


And a bit later on:


Evidence #4: Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, Sometimes between 98 and 116 AD

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-17.htm#P1394_249090

Here we have two statements that most were keeping it, except for those in Rome etc. who for some tradition had stopped. Then we have two endorsements, that all should keep the day. So the contention that tradition shows Sunday replacing the Sabbath from the beginning is simply not true. They were both being kept. Sabbath was kept in honor of the command, and Sunday was kept due to the resurrection of Jesus. We do not know at what time this Sunday observance started. But we can be sure if in the 5th century they are still keeping the Sabbath due to the commandment that it was not replaced by Sunday.
 
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PaleHorse

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FunkyBrother said:
Firstly the Sabbath day is not a day of worship, it is a day of rest:
Welcome to the conversation, FunkyBrother.
While I agree that it is a day of rest, I would also like to point out some of the other facets of the Sabbath - using scripture of course:
Genesis 2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

We find that God sanctified the Sabbath also. What does sanctified mean? According to Merriam-Webster it means "to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use". Now, if the Sabbath only entailed resting how can it be used for religious purposes? Obviously it cannot. God has a purpose for it. Let's look at another facet of it:

Leviticus 23:3 - Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

This verse tells me that the Sabbath is also to be a holy convocation. So the obvious question is, what is a convocation? Going back to Merriam-Webster we find that it means "an assembly of persons; to convene". We are to gather together on the Sabbath as well, if possible.

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” (Exodus 20: 8-11)

In the verse of the command itself (as you thoughtfully posted) it says we are to keep it holy. So, let's put it all together:
  • We are to keep it holy
  • It is a holy convocation - we are to assemble together
  • It was sancified - set aside for religous use
This looks very much like a worship service to me.


The Sabbath day has always been Saturday. The first day of the week has always been Sunday.
I agree with you here and I appreciate your posting it for some seem to not understand that simple fact.

I'd like to see the first part of that quote for it looks as if something was said just prior that might have to do with the Sabbath; I say this based off the first word of the above quote being "But"...this indicates a prior statement was made that shows opposition to the rest of the quote. Also, as you noted, this quote is from the 2nd century. We have examined in this thread quote from other "church fathers" from earlier time periods that actually show a transition being made from the Sabbath to Sunday observance, however, the change, as noted in many of the quotes themselves, wasn't due to any scriptural evidence but rather due to socio-political reasons. Regardless of this, I would have to disagree with Martyr in this quote anyway for the reason he gives for Sunday observance runs contrary to what scripture teaches. As you'll see in the following clarifications:

Doctrinal gymnastics aren't necessary - just clarifying scripture. First, I would ask you to see Lev 23 and notice that the feasts the Lord defined in that chapter were also called "sabbaths" (verses 11, 15, 16, 23, 32, & 39).
Now I would ask you pay special attention to verse 38 - for makes the distingtion that the feast sabbaths wer put beside (in addition to) the Sabbath of the Lord. What this tells us is that the word "sabbath" can also be referring to the feasts, as such, we must check the context in which it is being used. For that, I'd like you to compare Col 2:16 with Lev 23:37:
Col 2:16 - So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Lev 23:37 - These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day

What we learn here is that Col 2:16 is talking about the feast sabbaths; the offerings of food and drink. Also, as I'm sure you noted during your reading of Lev 23, the feasts were not a weekly observance, they were scheduled a monthly/moon cycle hence the mention of the "new moon". I hope this helps to show that Col 2:16 isn't talking about the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment at all.



While there has been debate on this subject already in this thread I'll keep my comments brief. First, notice that in verse 10 of Hebrews 4 that it says we should cease from our works AS God did. How did God rest from His works of creation? He rested the seventh-day! He observe the Sabbath that He established. I invite you to read a little study I've done of Heb 4 <CLICK HERE> for I think it would help you understand that Paul was informing his Jewish audience that we have a rest in Christ - but also makes a statement (in verse 9) that the seventh-day Sabbath still remains.

If you have received Jesus then you have the Sabbath (rest) every day.
But there is a problem here; the word Jesus used to describe His rest was not sabbaton or sabbatismos - it was anapauo which means (Strong’s #373)
1) to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strength

2) to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest

3) to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectation


He wasn’t talking of the Sabbath at all. If Christ had meant that He was to become the new Sabbath He would have used one of those words (sabbaton or sabbatismos) else He would have confused everyone, including His disciples. The clear fact of the matter is Christ was telling them exactly what He said, that He would give them spiritual rest from sin. There is nothing in His statement, or those that follow, that indicate He was talking about Sabbath at all. As such, those that say “Christ is my Sabbath” really haven’t studied the texts; I’m sorry to say it that way but it is the only honest observation that can be made. In fact, I have looked at most of the available Bible translations and here is what I found:

The WEB, RKJNT, ASV, BBE, BWE, DBY, KJV, WBS, WEY, YLT, LITV, NIV, NAS, AMP, CEV, ESV, MSG, NLT, NLV, ISV, K21, NAB, RSV, NRS, ALT, GMT, CSB, and the NCV (28 in all) all render anapauo as “rest”; only the Douay-Rheims Bible (RHE) renders it differently as “refresh”. Notice that not a single Bible version makes the claim, even the expanded Bible versions, that Christ meant the Sabbath in this verse.
 
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tall73

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You can find the whole work here, along with the other Fathers, in Greek and English! Or if you like I can send you my pdf version. I don't think it is under copyright, but I will have to check. You can also download a pdf of some of them on the site there. I also have a hardback version which is nice for looking over, but can't be searched, and is rather spendy,but I got them when the library bought a new copy!


http://www.ccel.org/
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.htm

Justin Martyr's first apology is the source here. It is a pretty good read overall.
 
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PaleHorse

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Cool - thanks Tall!
 
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Debi1967

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To all my Brethren in this thread (especially cliff)

I have for the past couple of days been sitting here and thinking, watching this thread from time to time, and the posts that are in it. I have concluded though with much thought and discernment, that it would be better for me to pull totally out of this thread and unsubscibe to it.

I think I understand now a little better the thoughts and beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventists, but I will not be able to agree with them. I hope that out of this they have at least been able to learn where we base our teachings and why if nothing else.

I think in my time here on CF that I have learned that sometimes it is better to learn than anything else, that the point is not always to make one concede to your way of thinking, and quite frankly it should not be. I think that only people can with a free choice choose something anyway, but I alaos think that learning so as to be informed is also just as important.

As one of the Co-Authors of this thread I want to thank my SDA Brethren and all those that believe in the Sabbath Day as being Saturday, for showing me something of their teachings and for educating me, education is important.

I do though believe in something quite different and I have no wish to force anyone to my belief system... Thank you all for helping me to understand your beliefs....

Pax Christi
Debi

Cliff, thank you for your attempt and my the Lord bless you always....
 
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Normann

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oldsage said:
No, I have explained this in this thread, it is silly to think you can find the modern names of the days of the week in a 2000 year old text. History attest to which day the sabbath is today, but you refuse to read history it seems.

Chris

Silly? Being you brought in the word silly I take my liberty in using the same word. Is it not silly to base your salvation on a calendar that was designed in the middle 1500's by a reilgious organization. And that organization has many things it teaches that I know for sure you disagree with!

Is it not silly to claim you keep the orginial Sabbath, when no one on earth can prove without a doubt which day it really was?

Is it not silly to ignore the history of the calendar and give it prefrence over the scriptures?

And as for history itself, is it not silly to put your faith in history instead of scripture?

Those of you with a teachable spirit beware of false teachers.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
 
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Cliff2

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Debi

Thanks for your kind words and likewise I do not think any SDA here would want to force you or anyone to keep the 7th day as the Sabbath.

I am sure it is the case with us here that we believe that to be the case and as such must follow our belief.

But do not feel you are through with this subject as you say it was because of your questions that this thread was started so if you want to have a spell and then return when the batteries are recharged.
 
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tall73

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And thank you as well. It is an interesting discussion. I had started to read the ECF again recently and find them to be enlightening. While I don't agree with everything they say I do have to admire their courage in the face of persecution, and their strong faith. This discussion brought to my attention some of the 5th century historians of the church that I had never really read much before. So for that I am grateful.

God bless you.
 
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tall73

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It would be silly to base your salvation on the Sabbath at all. But salvation is not based on the Sabbath. However, it is also silly to ignore what pleases God by keeping His law, regardless of which law.

Given that the Jews had ONLY numbers for their names for the days of the week, with the exception of Sabbath and preparation day, it seems fairly obvious that the 7th day means something.

So let me ask, how often do you keep your Sabbath on wednesday? or Tuesday? If it is every six days do you sometimes do a couple in a week to switch the day so you can plan it around your schedule? I am not being sarcastic, I am just curious.
 
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