Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Actually anyone caring to investigate rather than just make stupid assumptions by relying on what they think they know about us would know that the Church still practices full immersion, it is just less common in most parishes. Also since many Catholics are baptized as babies the practice is less practical for infants. Any adult can request full immersion and will be accommodated if they stick to the request.Cliff2 said:Interesting comment you have made.
If you say that Philip used Tradition to show him the truth then please explain why Philip want down into the water and baptised him?
If that was the traditional way of baptising then why isn't that the way it is done today.
It is true that Philip did expalin things but di not contradict what was in the Bible.
I am not even sure what this example has to do with "What day of the week is the Sabbath"
I think it would have been very important to Jewish Christians, just as circumcision was clearly very important to them, so much so that they nearly had a brawl about it. History and scripture shows that the Church decided those were Jewish laws and customs that need be applied to the Gentile or for that matter the Christian in general. The real question was does one have to be a good Jew to be a Christain. Paul repeatedly says not, so am not sure what your point is or what you think this proves.tall73 said:Herein lies the problem. Those who kept the Sabbath were likewise in the line of the apostles. All of the Christians were.
So your advice is that we accept some witnesses to the early church, but not others. To me that doesn't make sense. The witnesses provided DO show a progression. Some might say this is because of the traditions of Judaism holding on. And some of that might be true. However, it is interesting that these clear declarations of the Sabbath issue only came up later, when all of the rest of these things were settled in doctrine, if not always in practice, back in the Jerusalem Council. Do you think that those who were pushing for Circumcision would not also have mentioned Sabbath keeping were it not going on? Of course they would have. But likely it was going on. Just as it was in the days of Ignatius.
Why?
Learn then, my children, concerning all things richly, that
Abraham, the first who enjoined circumcision, looking forward in spirit to
Jesus, practiced that rite, having received the mysteries of the three letters.
For [the Scripture] saith, "And Abraham circumcised ten, and eight, and
three hundred men of his household." What, then, was the knowledge given
to him in this? Learn the eighteen first, and then the three hundred. The ten
and the eight are thus denoted Ten by I, and Eight by H. You have [the
initials of the, name of] Jesus. And because the cross was to express the
grace [of our redemption] by the letter T, he says also, "Three Hundred."
He signifies, therefore, Jesus by two letters, and the cross by one. He
knows this, who has put within us the engrafted gift of His doctrine. No
one has been admitted by me to a more excellent piece of knowledge than
this, but I know that ye are worthy.
Now, wherefore did Moses say, "Thou shalt not eat the swine, nor the
eagle, nor the hawk, nor the raven, nor any fish which is not possessed of
scales?" He embraced three doctrines in his mind [in doing so]. Moreover,
the Lord saith to them in Deuteronomy, "And I will establish my
ordinances among this people." Is there then not a command of God they
should not eat [these things]? There is, but Moses spoke with a spiritual
reference. For this reason he named the swine, as much as to say, "Thou
shalt not join thyself to men who resemble swine." For when they live in
pleasure, they forget their Lord; but when they come to want, they
acknowledge the Lord. And [in like manner] the swine, when it has eaten,
does not recognize its master; but when hungry it cries out, and on
receiving food is quiet again. "Neither shalt thou eat," says he "the eagle,
nor the hawk, nor the kite, nor the raven." "Thou shalt not join thyself,"
he means, "to such men as know not how to procure food for themselves
by labor and sweat, but seize on that of others in their iniquity, and
although wearing an aspect of simplicity, are on the watch to plunder
others." So these birds, while they sit idle, inquire how they may devour
the flesh of others, proving themselves pests [to all] by their wickedness.
"And thou shalt not eat," he says, "the lamprey, or the polypus, or the
cuttlefish." He means, "Thou shalt not join thyself or be like to such men
as are ungodly to the end, and are condemned to death." In like manner as
those fishes, above accursed, float in the deep, not swimming [on the
surface] like the rest, but make their abode in the mud which lies at the
bottom. Moreover, "Thou shalt not," he says, "eat the hare." Wherefore?
"Thou shalt not be a corrupter of boys, nor like unto such." Because the
hare multiplies, year by year, the places of its conception; for as many
years as it lives so many it has. Moreover, "Thou shalt not eat the hyena."
He means, "Thou shalt not be an adulterer, nor a corrupter, nor be like to
them that are such." Wherefore? Because that animal annually changes its
sex, and is at one time male, and at another female. Moreover, he has
rightly detested the weasel. For he means, "Thou shalt not be like to those
whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth, on account of
265
their uncleanness; nor shalt thou be joined to those impure women who
commit iniquity with the mouth. For this animal conceives by the mouth."
Moses then issued three doctrines concerning meats with a spiritual
significance; but they received them according to fleshly desire, as if he had
merely spoken of [literal] meats. David, however, comprehends the
knowledge of the three doctrines, and speaks in like manner: "Blessed is
the man who hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly," even as the
fishes [referred to] go in darkness to the depths [of the sea]; "and hath not
stood in the way of sinners," even as those who profess to fear the Lord,
but go astray like swine; "and hath not sat in the seat of scorners," even as
those birds that lie in wait for prey. Take a full and firm grasp of this
spiritual knowledge. But Moses says still further, "Ye shall eat every
animal that is cloven-footed and ruminant." What does he mean? [The
ruminant animal denotes him] who, on receiving food, recognizes Him that
nourishes him, and being satisfied by Him, is visibly made glad. Well spake
[Moses], having respect to the commandment. What, then, does he mean?
That we ought to join ourselves to those that fear the Lord, those who
meditate in their heart on the commandment which they have received,
those who both utter the judgments of the Lord and observe them, those
who know that meditation is a work of gladness, and who ruminate upon
the word of the Lord. But what means the cloven-footed? That the
righteous man also walks in this world, yet looks forward to the holy state
[to come]. Behold how well Moses legislated. But how was it possible for
them to understand or comprehend these things? We then, rightly
understanding his commandments, explain them as the Lord intended. For
this purpose He circumcised our ears and our hearts, that we might
understand these things.
Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which
[the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify
ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He
says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my
mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of
the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands,
and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it."
Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six
days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand
years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth,
saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my
children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be
271
finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His
Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge
the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He
truly rest on the seventh day.
Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it
with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify
the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things,
we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting
sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness
no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall
be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having
been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new
moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks:
Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have
made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning
of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we
keep the eighth day with joyfullness, the day also on which Jesus rose
again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended
into the heavens.
wait I just put my thing over his icon and laughed my you know what off .....oldsage said:Read the book of Acts
Chris
DrBubbaLove said:I think it would have been very important to Jewish Christians, just as circumcision was clearly very important to them, so much so that they nearly had a brawl about it. History and scripture shows that the Church decided those were Jewish laws and customs that need be applied to the Gentile or for that matter the Christian in general. The real question was does one have to be a good Jew to be a Christain. Paul repeatedly says not, so am not sure what your point is or what you think this proves.
All I meant to show with that statement is that if I take enough verses out of context, just shimming each a little bit, I can probably prove that Christ raised elephants on the ocean floor but only at night.tall73 said:er, wouldn't 10 witnesses be better than 2?
However, your overall point is clear, there are not clear texts that show a change so several that don't show it are gathered together to infer.
While I thank you for your generous offer I will have to decline but only on the basis that I have solid scripture that not only tells me Christ will give us rest but also that the seventh-day Sabbath remains for the people of God (i.e. - Christians).justinstout said:Jesus was the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
He is our Sabbath Rest.
Let me know your address and I'll send you a CD absolutely free.
This offer goes to anyone who would like to receive a free sermon CD entitled Our Sabbath Rest.
debiwebi said:No let's review I said that it could be traditional and you agreed .... then you said it had to be in the bible but have yet to prove where in reality and I have proven where the apostles could more than adequately change it ....I did not change the subject it is you that keeps doing that in order to deflect from the argument at hand ... because quite frankly it sinks your ship... so the only thing you have left is to accuse me of exactly what you are doing that is ad hominem in the extreme ....
all I'm saying is that the old testament law and Pharisaical tradition said, don't go out or gather food on the Sabbath. Christ allowed both, because He was returning the Sabbath to its original purpose, which was to be a rest for manking, a blessing to them. He is emphasizing the fact that we are allowed to do works that are necessary on the Sabbath, and it is a good thing to do good works for others on the Sabbath.PJW, who was it that accused Christ and His disciples of breaking the Sabbath for picking and eating corn? It was the Pharisees. What did Jesus tell them back?
They also accused Him of breaking the Sabbath because He healed on that day. He told them it was "LAWFUL" to do good on the Sabbath. Obviously He was NOT breaking the law.
The Pharisees also accused Christ of being a drunkard and of being possessed. Do you agree with them on those accusations?
justinstout said:Jesus was the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
He is our Sabbath Rest.
Let me know your address and I'll send you a CD absolutely free.
This offer goes to anyone who would like to receive a free sermon CD entitled Our Sabbath Rest.
pjw said:all I'm saying is that the old testament law and Pharisaical tradition said, don't go out or gather food on the Sabbath. Christ allowed both, because He was returning the Sabbath to its original purpose, which was to be a rest for manking, a blessing to them. He is emphasizing the fact that we are allowed to do works that are necessary on the Sabbath, and it is a good thing to do good works for others on the Sabbath.
DrBubbaLove said:Why would so many of the first century Churches be doing something some here want to claim is blasphemous, with no Apostles speaking out against it?
agree 100%. i may have sort of missed it there, i guess i probably took the Exodus verse out of context, sorry about that.A. They were not allowed to go gather food for a whole day when it was available to do the day before and they were instructed to.
B. Jesus was not gathering food for a whole day or anything of the sort. He ate some seeds.
C. Yes, you have it just right. He was RESTORING it. But not from God's commands, but from those of the pharisees who took the commands of God and expanded them. He intentionally healed on the Sabbath and pointed it out to pick that fight.
Why did He do all this? Why bother reforming something that was going to be over in no time anyway? Becuause it was not meant to be over. It was part of the law that He came to restore to the heart in the new covenant.
pjw said:agree 100%. i may have sort of missed it there, i guess i probably took the Exodus verse out of context, sorry about that.
but He was definitely ridding the Sabbath of all the Jewish traditions, and I also believe that in His Life, Death, and Resurrection, He fulfilled all the laws of God in every detail. He also abolished the Old Testament ceremonial and civil laws about the Sabbath, and returned it to its Creation ordinance of commemoration of 1. The Rest that God had from all His works, and 2. The Rest that Christ has given us in salvation. The fourth commandment is to Remember the Rest, to keep it holy, work six days and do all your work, but rest on the seventh day.
it is apparent from the New Testament (ignoring any other early church writings), that the early church came together for worship services on the first day of the week, to break bread, hear the Word, pray, give offerings, and share a fellowship meal.
the seventh day is indeed clearly spelled out, it's the day after six days of work.Well we agree on about 90 percent of this then. That is not too bad! I simply think that the 7th day was fairly clearly spelled out, so we are to honor it. But I agree that Jesus kept all the law, that Hebrews is speaking of salvation, that the rest at creation was what Jesus restored it to, etc.
tall73 said:Incidentally I have a different take on Hebrews 4 than Palehorse, and I do think that the author is speaking of the rest of salvation. However, his use of an illustration using a psalm and the creation account say nothing one way or the other about the weekly Sabbath.
I will try to listen to you link if I get a chance. However, at the moment my computer motherboard fried and this machine is a bit old. So it may be after I get that worked out.
pjw said:the seventh day is indeed clearly spelled out, it's the day after six days of work., for me, that's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday [don't you hate how the days of the week are named after ancient gods?] Thursday, Friday, Saturday, the Lord's Day.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?