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BigDave said:At the same time no one can say with certainty that the 7th day (as counted from Creation and/or the inception of the Sabbath law) is still on Saturday.
Astronomy Proves It
Finally, we have the scientific proof of ASTRONOMY. We quote from the official government statements to the League of Nations, as published August 17, 1926, in an official League document.
The government of Finland presented this observation from one of its astronomers: "The reform (calendar reform before the League) would break the division of the week, which has been followed for thousands of years, and therefore has been hallowed by immemorial use."
The government of France presented the following statements from two of its leading astronomers:
"One essential point is that of the continuity of the week . . . a continuity which has existed for so many centuries." "The continuity of the week . . . is without doubt the most scientific institution bequeathed to us by antiquity." Stated Prof. D. Eginitis, director of the Observatory of Athens, a member of the League Committee, "The continuity of the week . . . has crossed the centuries, and all known calendars, still intact."
<H1>THE SABBATH
HAS TIME BEEN LOST?
</H1>All Bible texts are from the King James Version unless otherwise stated.
Where was the Sabbath instituted? Genesis 2:2, 3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."
Exodus 31:16, 17 "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."
Hebrews 4:4 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."
The Sabbath was not lost from Eden to Abraham.
Genesis 7:4 "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."
Genesis 8:10, 12 "And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;. . . And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more."
Genesis 29:27, 28 "Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also."
The lives of the patriarchs over lapped:-
Adam died when Methuselah was 243 years.The weekly cycle of time could not have been lost from the time of Adam to Abraham.
Methuselah died when Shem was 98 years.
Shem died when Abraham was 150 years.
When the Children of Israel left Egypt they knew which day was the 7th and that was before the law was given at Mount Sinai.
Exodus 16:4, 5 "Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."
The same Sabbath that God had sanctified at creation week was again given at Mount Sinai.
Exodus 20:8 - 11
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
The Sabbath was not lost in the Promised land.
Jeremiah 17:24-26
"And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.
And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the LORD."
Amos 8:4 - 6
"Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?"
Isaiah 58:13 "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:"
2 Kings 4:23 "And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, It shall be well."
1 Chronicles 9:32 "And other of their brethren, of the sons of the Kohathites, were over the showbread, to prepare it every sabbath."
Isaiah 56:2 - 6
"Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"
The Sabbath was still being kept at the time of Christ.
Matthew 12:1 - 12
"At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."
Mark 2:27, 28 "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."
Luke 23:54 "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on."
From Genesis to Christ a period of 4,000 years the Sabbath has not been lost.
The Sabbath since the time of Christ.
The calander we use today has had only minor alterations that has not affected the week and it was in use 40 years before Christ by the authority of Julius Ceasar.
The Sabbath of the modern world.
Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
Hebrews 4:4 - 11
"For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
So we see that God made everything through Jesus Christ, His son, so the Sabbath was made and sanctified by Jesus from Genesis to Revelation and that he is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28).
Well, its not so simple, as we discussed earlier in this thread:mysparrow said:i was under the impression, according to jewish calendar , both past and present, that the sabbath is Saturday?
BigDave said:[/b]
.................
Seems pretty explicit to me. The Sabbath is specifically said to be the seventh day. Saturday is the seventh day so the Sabbath would fall in Saturday.
...................
Normann said:Read it again...
Exodus 20:8-10
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
It does not say that the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath.
Work six days and rest the seventh!
If you work Wednesday through Monday, then Tuesday is your Sabbath!
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
tall73 said:I have only quoted Hebrews for you 4 times now to the effect that Jesus is our High Priest. I even put it in 7 point type for you. But when I asked you directly you still won't say that it is the case. Moreover, you now say according to me. Once again, you are hiding your head in the sand.
Well again that's your interpretation. Paul asks us to perform the Eucharist. Ignatius shows this too. Hey, just quote Hebrews again and say I'm making the Bible lie! IF anything your theory doesn't fit all these other facts. Mine doestall73 said:And an overseer is not a priest. He is not a go between to mediate between you and God. I also quoted Paul, that Jesus is our only mediator.
So, you're saying when the Apostles elected one to their own number he had lesser rights than what they'd been given? ! ?tall73 said:Except that you have not demonstrated the apostolic succession gave the same rights.
The only one mentioned in the Bible. That does not mean that the church 'stopped' at the time of the writing of Acts. If it did, then the Bible itself would never have been compiled.tall73 said:The only succession to the office of apostle was that of Judas,
And? What was the significance of this?tall73 said:and it was because the Scriptures said that someone must fill his station.
That's false. He was succeeded by Symeon.tall73 said:We don't see any replacement for James at his death.
See above.tall73 said:In fact, the requirement was that they had been with Jesus. It is not a continuing office. That is why they appointed overseers, not apostles.
That's false too. Had you read the words of Paul he says it's not just a commerative meal.tall73 said:Indeed, it is remembering the Lord's death, not sacrificing Him over and over.
No, Jesus said His body is real food.tall73 said:Which is why He said I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until heaven? He seems to still call it the fruit of the vine , and says it is a rememberance, not a sacrifice.
Repeating a just so does not equat to 'answering'.tall73 said:But there is no mention of the office of priest as you define it, someone who is a mediator for you by offering Jesus again and again as a sacrifice. And I have in fact answered that multiple times and as usual you ignore it.
Montalban said:The whole nonsense about 'mediators' made by Tall73 is another attempt at selective use of evidence.
The mere fact Jesus chose 12 men to carry on His work is telling. He didn't leave the Bible behind for people to read for themselves and come to a knowledge of Jesus by themselves.
Cliff2 said:Go back to Gen 2 and we see that after 6 days God made the next day holy. That happens to have been the 7th day.
Then read Ex 20:8-11 and it is not too hard to see that Saturday is the Sabbath, the 7th day of the week.
Click ________ for some more info on the Sabbath
Normann said:No Cliff, I won't click here; it is plain in the scripture that the Jews changed the day of the Sabbath after Pentecost every year.
You are preaching from a calendar; not the Bible.
2 Tim 2:15
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
Cliff2 said:See if this works
http://www.seventh-day.org/index.html
Then click onto whatever subject you desire to study.
oldsage said:Cliff, he was saying he won't look at your evidence. not that the link didn't work. He doesn't care what you have to show him.
Chris
You are not taking into account that the whole Tall73 wording of 'mediators' is a straw-man, to begin with. No where have I referred to priests by this term.Cliff2 said:You are not taking into account that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom and knowledge.
Isn't it interesting that the Holy Spirit came to those that the Apostles had laid hands upon. As Tall73 seems to think that the Apostelship ended there; what provisions then happened for the Holy Spirit to come after they'd gone?Cliff2 said:It is not me or any other person. We maybe able to present truth but it is the Holy Spirit that impresses the heart and convicts the soul.
oldsage said:Cliff, he was saying he won't look at your evidence. not that the link didn't work. He doesn't care what you have to show him.
Chris
Montalban said:You are not taking into account that the whole Tall73 wording of 'mediators' is a straw-man, to begin with. No where have I referred to priests by this term.
John 20:21-23 Has Jesus picking a particular group out and sending them out.
They in turn ordained deacons Acts 6:6 and Acts 13:3
"The sacrament of the Eucharist (Holy Communion) is the sacrament by which Christ unites Himself with us today. He comes to transubstantiate and change our lives into His beautiful life"
Coniaris, A. M., (1982), "Introducing the Orthodox Church: It's Faith and Life", (Light & Life Publishing; Minnesota), p147
Why would they even bother to appoint James to head the church in Jerusalem?
Isn't it interesting that the Holy Spirit came to those that the Apostles had laid hands upon. As Tall73 seems to think that the Apostelship ended there; what provisions then happened for the Holy Spirit to come after they'd gone?
At least you don't just repeat "HEBREWS 8" and call that discussion
Specifically Tall73 missed St. Paul saying it's not just a 'meal'
1 Corinthians 11
20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat
It is NOT the "Lord's Supper". If you want to 'eat' a meal, do so at home...
21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
He repeats that this was 'received' from Jesus
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you:
Then in the same passage he repeats Jesus' words (having already said that it is NOT a 'combative meal'; the Lord's Supper). It is referring to Jesus' 'new covenant'
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
And it has a sacred purpose...
26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
This also suggests it's not a 'one-off' thing.
And He again associates it with the actual body and blood of Christ
27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
To sin against the body and blood you drink and eat is to sin against the very body and blood of Christ; they are alike. To sin against one is the same as to sin against the other...
Most telling of all he says you must recognise this when you partake of them...
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
If you don't recognise that it's the body and blood of the Lord, you bring judgment upon yourself.
And, he repeats again that it's not just a communal meal...
33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
SO, if Jesus has replaced the HIGH PRIEST, it is obvious that other positions are there; they are all given in the NT. They are confirmed by early Christian writers
St. Ignatius, taught by St. Peter himself, and writing before the Bible was compiled wrote...
Epistle to the Ephesians
CHAPTER 5
5:1 For if I in a short time had such converse with your bishop, which was not after the manner of men but in the Spirit, how much more do I congratulate you who are closely joined with him as the Church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things may be harmonious in unity.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html
This reflects the Epistle;
Titus 1:7 Since a bishop is entrusted with God's work, he must be blamelessnot overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
We take in the bread because it is no longer mere bread...
Epistle to the Ephesians
20:2 especially if the Lord should reveal aught to me. Assemble yourselves together in common, every one of you severally, man by man, in grace, in one faith and one Jesus Christ, who after the flesh was of David's race, who is Son of Man and Son of God, to the end that ye may obey the bishop and presbytery without distraction of mind; breaking one bread, which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote that we should not die but live for ever in Jesus Christ.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html
Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?
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