Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Original Happy Camper said:

Prophecy is History in advance
History is fulfillment of prophecy
If you read the whole article it supports the 457 bc date

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I still see issues that you need to address.

Luke chapter three does not mention when Jesus was baptized.

Original Happy Camper said:

My error wrong site pasted try this one
http://roman-britain.co.uk/people/tiberius.htm
TIBERIUS
Born: BC42/11/16 Tiberius Claudius Nero on the Palatine Hill
Father: Tiberius Claudius Nero, fought against Augustus in civil war in BC40
Mother: Livia Drusilla (later Julia Augusta).
Emperor: 14/08/19AD Tiberius Caesar Augustus.
Died: 37/03/16AD smothered by Macro in his bed at or near Micenum.

History:

• BC25 military tribune in Cantabria
• BC23 quaestor
• BC20 won back standards of Crassus in Parthian campaign
• BC16 governor of Gaul
• BC16 married wife1: Vipsania Agrippina, daughter of Agrippa
• BC? son born: Tiberius Drusus Caesar
• BC13 consul I
• BC11 married wife2: Julia, daughter of Augustus
• BC9 imperator I
• BC8 imperator II
• BC7 consul II
• BC6/06/26 Tribunicia Potestas granted for 5 years
• BC6 retires to Rhodes
• BC2 Julia divorced, banished to Pandateria
• 2AD Aug. allowed back to Rome as privatus
• 4/06/26AD Tribunicia Potestas (renewed annually from this date)
• 4/06/27AD adopted by Augustus, became Tiberius Iulius Caesar
• 4AD adopts his brother Drusus' eldest son: Claudius Germanicus Caesar
• 6AD imperator III
• 8AD imperator IV
• 9AD imperator V
• 11AD imperator VI
• 12AD granted supreme power by Augustus

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Thanks, much better, though you could have just posted the last line.

Original Happy Camper said:

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Here is a neat package



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I am familiar with what the SDA teaches. Without reference to the 2300 year prophesy I agree with the time line up until 1798. Another interesting point is from the first Muslim shrine on the Temple mount until the six day war is also 1260 years.

I am not able understand how from Dan 8:14 you say "start of judgement". If the 2300 year prophesy was a reality and not a SDA thing, then Dan 8 points to the time of the end which would include many things; I do not know what as an anti-type, cleansing the sanctuary would mean, but the type is where the High Priest sprinkles the blood of the sacrifice onto the box that houses both God and the covenant.

Dan 8 says after 2300 days (which would be more than six years) the sanctuary is cleansed but also it is the latter part of God's indignation.

Daniel 8:19 (NKJV)
19 And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

What happens at the time of the end is:

Daniel 8:20-25 (NKJV)
20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns--they are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.
22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.
23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25 "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.

What is the question asked?

Daniel 8:13 (NKJV)
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?"

Is the question, what is the duration of the transgression? If the transgression is for 2300 days or 2300 years, neither would include the seventy week prophesy; they could operate in parallel or overlap.

Is the Abrahamic Covenant still in force?

What is 1844?

Invention of the Brougham carriage?

Nah, that was 1839

Original Happy Camper said:

View attachment 238545

Here is a neat package



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The 1150 days were the duration of the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus.

All as specified int 'oly book

BABerean2 said:

Was Paul confused when he revealed the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant in Galatians 3:16-29, when he said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made?

Do you think Paul was confused when he compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?

Was Paul confused in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, when he contrasted the "ministry of death written on stones" to the ministry of the Spirit?

Was the author of the Book of Hebrews confused in Hebrews 7:12, when he said there was a change in the law?

Did the New Covenant really make the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13?

Is there really a contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in Hebrews 12:18-24, or are we really still come to the mountain that burns with fire?

What is the difference between what you are saying and what the Judaisers said in Acts chapter 15?

Does the following command us to keep a Sabbath day?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Are there two separate sets of commandments in the words of Christ below, or are there only one?
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Below we find that we are under a higher standard, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

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I personally do not use Paul as an authority but others who believe the same as me do use Paul to support their position; I am able to discuss what Paul has to say.

I do not think Paul was confused, he may have had a different agenda to what many think.

Those who believe the commandments are the Law use Paul to support their case and those who say the Law (covenant) is abrogated use the same words of Paul to support their case. It is not to do with interpretation it is to do with what one starts with. If one believe the law is abrogated the one will read that into Paul's words and if one believes the Law/ covenant is not abrogated then the Law unchanged is read into Paul's words.

Regarding the Law most of Paul's arguments are with Jews and Paul's epistles are only one side of a conversation. Galatians 3:16-29, Paul is arguing with Jews who want to continue with their doctrines of men. Pauls supports my point of view.

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

previously Paul has said the Law cannot annul the promise made to Abraham of Christ; 24 Paul is saying that the Law was the instructor that leads Jews to Christ; 25 After arriving at Christ a person does not need further instruction because his knowledge of the Law is sufficient. Paul argues that the Law cannot be a substitute for Christ.

Galatians 4:24-31, I don't see Paul being confused here; I do not see why Paul thought he needed to bring Ishmael and his mother into the discussion; but like I said before, we only have one side of this private discussion.

2 Corinthians 3: You must be joking! God has said His Law is perfect; the plan of salvation has always been about life and death; Paul has a habit of trying not to offend the Jews, so he seems to say, "it wasn't your fault, the Law failed", but it remains true the way of the Lord is narrow and few find it most go the broad way to destruction.

Hebrews 7:12, What you are doing is taking words literally; I do not think the writer means what you think. There could be reasons why the author neglected to place name at the head of this epistle. once again this epistle is one side of a private conversation, and semantics could play a part. from the text I conclude those being spoken to have not accepted Christ and still want to kill sheep.

Hebrews 7:12 (NKJV)
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

What is this bloke talking about; changing the five Books, deleting the foundation that Christ is the lamb of; changing the Law applicable to the Priesthood? If he is talking about changes to the Law applicable to the priesthood and to the sacrifice then what does he mean by change; there is a change to the frequency; the sacrifice daily, weekly and annually is changed once only but if the Law was deleted, the priesthood and the sacrifice would be meaningless and useless. If he means to change the Law as a whole this anomalous writer would need to be greater than Christ who said it may not be changed.

Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV)
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The only thing about Hebrews that suggest the author was confused is he neglected to put his name on it; and he didn't make allowances for people taking him literally. I assume he knows what he is talking about but is not a good communicator. His semantical approach here does not confuse me; there are two covenants that produce the same fruit; they differ not in Law but in application; the two fundament differences is the mediator and the sacrifice. Another difference in the OT a person had to write the Law on their own heart now the Law is written on their heart for them without them having to learn it.

The words "Law" and "covenant" are interchangeable.

Mathew 5:18
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the covenant till all is fulfilled.

Hebrews 12:18-24 Why shouldn't there be a contrast; in the previous covenant there was the great God and Moses the mediator and the new covenant we have God in human form who is also the mediator. The fire is to do with God not the covenant.

Acts 15. I am not a Judaist, I don' follow doctrines of men, although plenty would accuse me and burn me at the stake and I have only read verse one. Moses never owned the Law/covenant he was only ever the mediator of the Law/covenant; it is always God's Law and God's covenant.

Col 2:16, Col 2:17, Who is Paul that he could command anything. Abetter question would be, "Does Paul ever suggest people should not keep the Sabbath?" and the answer is no.

John 15:10, What possible reason could there be for Jesus' commandments being different to His Fathers. You have heard of the two witnesses; Jesus said, if He says anything that his Father does not witness then it is not true. If Jesus' commandments were different to His Father's the change would need to be pre-empted in OT prophesy.

klutedavid said:

I still see issues that you need to address.

Luke chapter three does not mention when Jesus was baptized.

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Sure it does but you have to go to history to find it the year.
Luke 3:1
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him,
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

sparow said:

I am familiar with what the SDA teaches. Without reference to the 2300 year prophesy I agree with the time line up until 1798. Another interesting point is from the first Muslim shrine on the Temple mount until the six day war is also 1260 years.

I am not able understand how from Dan 8:14 you say "start of judgement". If the 2300 year prophesy was a reality and not a SDA thing, then Dan 8 points to the time of the end which would include many things; I do not know what as an anti-type, cleansing the sanctuary would mean, but the type is where the High Priest sprinkles the blood of the sacrifice onto the box that houses both God and the covenant.

Dan 8 says after 2300 days (which would be more than six years) the sanctuary is cleansed but also it is the latter part of God's indignation.

Daniel 8:19 (NKJV)
19 And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

What happens at the time of the end is:

Daniel 8:20-25 (NKJV)
20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns--they are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.
22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.
23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25 "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.

What is the question asked?

Daniel 8:13 (NKJV)
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?"

Is the question, what is the duration of the transgression? If the transgression is for 2300 days or 2300 years, neither would include the seventy week prophesy; they could operate in parallel or overlap.

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We may have to agree to disagree.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn,

Seeing as how the 2300 day vision is tied to the little horn we must first establish the identity of the little horn.

You say you understand SDA teaching but do you agree with SDA teaching on the identity of the little horn?

Douggg said:

There are two gaps, not one gap.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: [gap to 70 AD] and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; [gap to the end times] and the end thereof [of the 70 weeks] shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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What I have determined is that the Prophecy has three parts, hence the 7 x 7, 62 x 7 and 1 x 7, that is pretty obvious to most everyone, except those who insist its linear.

They refuse to admit that even if 70 AD was a part of the prophecy there would still be a gap, thus they come up with some unintelligible idea about Christ dying in the middle of the week which is head scratching to be honest, and then they also can't explain why Jesus breaks the "Covenant" in the middle of the week.

What I think happened is that Gods original plan was to send his son Jesus, if Israel accepted Jesus then Jesus would have returned to save them in 70 AD and ruled the world with a rod of iron at that time, but since humans have free will, and God knew Israel would reject Jesus, then the plan for the Church Age was inserted, of course God always knew this and prophesied this through His prophets of old via a strange people who have not called on me shall know me. Thus the 70th week when Israel repents was not at the 70 AD event, but will be at the End Times Events described in Revelation, after the Church Departs.

Something else I hadn't considered, if Israel had of accepted Jesus as their Messiah and then the Romans had of killed him anyway, that might have precipitated the 70th week happening immediately after Jesus' death !! The Jews might have revolted, and Rome might have retaliated, and Jesus might have returned after 7 years to save the Jews.

Of course, God planed for the Church Age because He knew Israel would reject Jesus.

These are just thoughts, we will never know until we can ask Jesus in Heaven.

But I find it intriguing that if we TAKE OUT the Church Age, then the Statue with 10 toes and the Four Beasts and the Little Horn with 10 Kings all FIT TOGETHER PERFECTLY !! The only thing missing is when Israel REPENTS, if Israel had of repented 2000 years ago, then I think there would have been no Gap, but God knew there would be a Gap, thus he foretold of a 2000 some odd year period where Israel was as Dead Men's Bones.

Our ways are not Gods ways. Just the fact that the Prophecy tells us Israel has to repent before the Prophecy can be fulfilled is or SHOULD BE enough for us to understand it, but people today go their own way, just as Israel did 2000 years ago. The result is they stay confused.

Revealing Times said:

What I have determined is that the Prophecy has three parts, hence the 7 x 7, 62 x 7 and 1 x 7, that is pretty obvious to most everyone, except those who insist its linear.

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I think you mean "uninterrupted".

Revealing Times said:

Something else I hadn't considered, if Israel had of accepted Jesus as their Messiah and then the Romans had of killed him anyway, that might have precipitated the 70th week happening immediately after Jesus' death !! The Jews might have revolted, and Rome might have retaliated, and Jesus might have returned after 7 years to save the Jews.

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Well, there is a bigger picture to the bible, than us humans, and this world, before either one was created. And that is God is going to destroy Satan and his works. That's what I am concluding, when everything is taken into consideration.
Satan is the core of the problem.

If you look at Revelation like that... Then you will see the 7th trumpet in a different light.

sparow said:

John 15:10, What possible reason could there be for Jesus' commandments being different to His Fathers. You have heard of the two witnesses; Jesus said, if He says anything that his Father does not witness then it is not true. If Jesus' commandments were different to His Father's the change would need to be pre-empted in OT prophesy.

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We find below that the ten commandments are the Sinai covenant, and that the Sinai Covenant did not exist before Mount Sinai.


Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


Below we find the beginning of the battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ.
During most of the history of the Church the Judaisers have won the day.


Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Peter could not have been talking about circumcision here, because it was something he did bear.)


Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

.

Douggg said:

I think you mean "uninterrupted".

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Hi Douggg, no sir, I meant linear because its still three prophetic uttering's so it could never be uninterrupted per se, whereas linear describes a progressing from one stage to another in a single series of steps; sequential, thus a linear narrative so to speak.

Basically its the same thing, its a STRAIGHT LINE.................. Instead of a ..... ..... ..... Line like that. But its connected by different events.

Douggg said:

Well, there is a bigger picture to the bible, than us humans, and this world, before either one was created. And that is God is going to destroy Satan and his works. That's what I am concluding, when everything is taken into consideration.
Satan is the core of the problem.

If you look at Revelation like that... Then you will see the 7th trumpet in a different light.

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When you get to Heaven Angels are going to Scratch their heads and say, what were you thinking Douggg, I have Revelation's timing down pat after not understanding it for years, but I can see why its confusing for many, so its no bigeeee brother.

God Bless.

As to this 2300 days actually equals 1150 days instead, I find that to be silly unless one can prove it from other Scriptures. Let's say on Monday there is the evening and the morning sacrifice. And let's say on Tuesday there is the evening and the morning sacrifice. How many days does that involve? 1 or 2? It would have to just involve one day in order for 2300 days to somehow add up to 1150 days instead. Monday and Tuesday doesn't involve just one day though, it involves 2 days. The only thing I can figure out, the reason some need it to mean 1150 days instead is so that they can seemingly fit Antiochus iv into the texts. When one has to resort to fitting round pegs into square holes in order to make their interpretations seemingly work, what should that tell someone?

Depends on how long it took to baptize everyone

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Original Happy Camper said:

Sure it does but you have to go to history to find it the year.
Luke 3:1
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him,
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

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keras said:

Daniel 8 is a chronological story, 13-14 prophesies about the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus 4th Epiphanies. [A4E] That did happen.
After that, in verse 17 Daniel receives a vision for the time of the end, as prophesied in Daniel 8:19-25 This is yet to happen.

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Your interpretation makes no sense then. You're not paying close enough attention to the text in this case. Or maybe I'm not, yet I'm thinking it is you who that is not.

Daniel 8:9-14 and the interpretation of those particular verses are found in Daniel 8:23-26. How then can you conclude the time of the end is yet to happen, where that's when Daniel 8:9-14 happens, but then contradict that by claiming that era of time belongs to A4E instead?

BABerean2 said:

If you can force an antichrist into Daniel chapter 9, you can probably make a president fit in there as well...

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Do you think so? Maybe I believe in red dragons with 7 heads as well. You must have a very low opinion of my intelligence then if you think my intelligence is so sub-par that I could probably fit a president in there as well. What is your point you are trying to make here if not a direct insult on my intelligence?

DavidPT said:

Do you think so? Maybe I believe in red dragons with 7 heads as well. You must have a very low opinion of my intelligence then if you think my intelligence is so sub-par that I could probably fit a president in there as well. What is your point you are trying to make here if not a direct insult on my intelligence?

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If you are loosing the argument, you do not need to make it personal.

If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen for a while.

Some of the most intelligent people that I know are able to twist God's Word to make it fit their man-made doctrines...

.

Revealing Times said:

I have Revelation's timing down pat after not understanding it for years, but I can see why its confusing for many, so its no bigeeee brother.

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Really...

Then surely you must have a complete explanation for "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
Please help us understand how it fits into your doctrine.

.

Why do you think the Judaizers have won?
Generally I think the church has won, although
In the last hundred years the judaizers have done better.

BABerean2 said:

We find below that the ten commandments are the Sinai covenant, and that the Sinai Covenant did not exist before Mount Sinai.


Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


Below we find the beginning of the battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ.
During most of the history of the Church the Judaisers have won the day.


Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Peter could not have been talking about circumcision here, because it was something he did bear.)


Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

.

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