Where does scripture say God wants us to be sick?

Rockrz · Mar 28, 2005

Strong in Him said:
Does he allow his children to be sick sometimes? Obviously.

Yeah, and He allows people to go to hell, too!
But it's not His will. He wants them to receive salvation by choice. By the same token, He wants them to receive healing, but many won't.

DailyBlessings · Mar 28, 2005

Well, as far as illness and punishment are concerned, this very question was asked of Jesus, as is told in the 9th chapter of John. The Lord came upon a blind man, and his disciples asked him:

Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?

His reply was thus:

Neither this man nor his parents sinned, said Jesus, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

So it seems to me that my Lord does not consider an illness to be a punishment for a person's sins.

Strong in Him · Mar 28, 2005

Rockrz said:
By the same token, He wants them to receive healing, but many won't.

So how do you know this? David Watson refused to receive his healing and chose to die of cancer, rather than live to see his children grow up did he? By saying that Christians are refusing to receive healing, you're saying that we are choosing to remain ill - presumably out of some misguided notion that we ought to suffer, that we can use our illnesses to skive off work, or that we are so limited in our view of God that we fail to believe he has the power to heal us.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

When God says to me Gill, I want to heal you", I'll say "Amen Lord! So be it, bring it on." I suspect many others would say the same. Until then, I remain ill to his glory!

seebs · Mar 28, 2005

Rockrz said:
Special revelation? You must be referring to the mind (understanding, vision) of Christ, that is available to all believers and says that Jesus took all sickness and disease upon Himself so mankind wouldn't have to have it!

The term is well defined.

General revelation? You must be referring to carnal thinking, which is death (see Romans, chapter 8) Of course this world's wisdom is going to tell you that you are going to get sick...they're all trying to sell you something!

No. General Revelation (see Romans 1) is the way the world itself testifies to God's existence and nature.

All you have to do, brother, is make the decision to be spiritually minded and continually feed your spirit and your mind with what God says, and quit feeding yourself with what the devil says!

This will not change whether or not I have a cold.

It may, however, change how I feel about the cold.

Don't confuse these scriptures contain permissive language in the original Hebrew, because God does not create evil.

The Bible says He does.

If He did then the Bible is wrong when it says there is no darkness in God.

Well, the world is full of challenges for us. Figuring out how to reconcile these things is one of them.

This should answer a few questions, unless you believe James was a false prophet! He was the half brother of Jesus...He grew up in the same household as Jesus, who only did and said what He heard His father say!

I am not convinced of the truth of any of these claims. Jesus did things that other people told Him to do. And I have no reason to believe that anyone was the half brother of Jesus.

seebs · Mar 28, 2005

*sigh*

Who really has stronger faith? The man who is healed, or the man who isn't and believes anyway?

Rockrz · Mar 28, 2005

C'mon, man...get your argument together here, or all your friends will become Word of Faith people

You said it was a mis-guided thought to think you should suffer here...

Strong in Him said:
presumably out of some misguided notion that we ought to suffer

Then, you go and say you are going to stay sick for God's glory...

Strong in Him said:
I remain ill to his glory

What are you saying anyway? Do you even know?

seebs said:
I have no reason to believe that anyone was the half brother of Jesus.

Jesus' Father was God...James' father was Joseph. They both had the same mother, but different fathers. This makes them half brothers...

seebs · Mar 29, 2005

I am not convinced that James was the biological son of Mary. I do not see anything unambiguous about this in Scripture.

In any event, Word of Faith is like Christian Vanillism. That, if you haven't seen it before, is the belief that, through His son Jesus Christ, God gives us all a vanilla ice cream cone every day. If someone doubts this, you ask incredulously "don't you think God is powerful enough to give us all ice cream?"

The fact is that even very faithful people become sick. The body lives according to physical laws, no matter how spiritual you are. We can argue with this, or we can accept it and move on to "what can we learn from this".

Strong in Him · Mar 29, 2005

Rockrz said:
You said it was a mis-guided thought to think you should suffer here...
Then, you go and say you are going to stay sick for God's glory...
What are you saying anyway? Do you even know?

Yes I know perfectly well what I'm saying, thank you. I said that if you say that Christians are refusing to be healed, (which it seems to me that you were) then you are saying that we choose to remain ill. I can think of various reasons why someone might want to remain ill, a) because they believe they should suffer, for some reason, b) because they are all skivvers and enjoy being off work, and c) because they don't believe God can heal us anyway.
None of these reasons are true - for me anyway.

I also said that when God tells me he's going to heal me physically, then he'll do just that. He HAS told me that he's going to make me whole. One day that wholeness will include physical healing. I don't know when that day will be, and until then I will seek to glorify him as I am.

Healing is not an automatic right that Christians have. We are promised eternal life, the Holy Spirit and a God who is present with us in all our trials and will never let us go or stop loving us. We are NOT promised exemption from colds, illness or car crashes.
And don't call me man.

Strong in Him · Mar 29, 2005

Seebs,

Matthew 13v55 says

"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?"

In Galatians 1v19, Paul says that the only people he saw after his conversion were Peter, who he stayed with, and James, the Lord's brother.

seebs · Mar 29, 2005

Strong in Him said:
Seebs,

Matthew 13v55 says

"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?"

In Galatians 1v19, Paul says that the only people he saw after his conversion were Peter, who he stayed with, and James, the Lord's brother.

The problem is that both of these are just as sensible if we take this for figurative or adoptive brotherhood; they are not specifically denoted as biological children of either Mary or Joseph.

Strong in Him · Mar 29, 2005

seebs said:
The problem is that both of these are just as sensible if we take this for figurative or adoptive brotherhood; they are not specifically denoted as biological children of either Mary or Joseph.

I'm not sure what you mean by figurative brotherhood. Why would Matthew give the names of Jesus' brothers if he was only speaking figuratively? And even if there were evidence to prove that James had been adopted, legally he would have all the rights of a natural born son.

Matthew, Mark and Luke also describe the incident where Jesus' mother and brothers appear and are looking for him, John notes that even Jesus' brothers did not believe in him. It seems clear from the context of these passages that the writers are talking about literal brothers. What evidence is there for adoption?

Josephus also refers to James as the Lord's brother.

seebs · Mar 29, 2005

I agree that it's reasonable to believe that they were literal brothers, but Jesus talked a lot about brotherhood in contexts suggesting that He would call many, many, people His "brothers" who were not biologically related to him.

In short, since Jesus referred to non-biological "brothers", it's hard to be certain whether a given usage is biological or not.

Strong in Him · Mar 29, 2005

seebs said:
In short, since Jesus referred to non-biological "brothers", it's hard to be certain whether a given usage is biological or not.

Maybe, but I don't think it's something we'll ever be able to prove this side of heaven. Why does it matter anyway? If Matthew reports that people said "we know his brothers", and someone was able to prove without doubt that they were actually 2nd cousins once removed, what difference would it make? The point of that passage was that people were saying that they knew Jesus' background and where he came from. There was a belief that when the Messiah came, he would just appear, and no one would know where he came from.

Most commentators I've come across acknowledge that James was the Lord's brother, and as such, it was natural that he should become head of the early church.

Rockrz · Mar 29, 2005

Strong in Him said:
Healing is not an automatic right that Christians have

No, you have decided that it's not automatic for you, therefore you will never get any healing beyond what a doctor can provide for you. Besides, if it's not your right as a Christian to be healed, how dare you even go to a doctor and try to un-do what may be the will of God for you!?!?!?!

Healing is part of the deliverance that is in salvation. Go look up salvation in the original Greek and you will find it means deliverance! God has already provided deliverance from all the works of the devil, including sickness. (see 1 John 3:8).

The way you apply and consider God's Word as ministering to your life, is the measure of results you're going to get in your life. If you have allowed the devil (and well meaning un-believing Christians) to talk you into believing God doesn't always heal just because you have physical evidence of Christians being sick...then you're stuck in this natural realm where your physical health is concerned!

See, God has already healed us...but not everybody is receiving healing!
Just like, God has provided salvation for all people but not everybody is receiving salvation.

Just because everybody isn't receiving it, does not mean it's not what God wants. It just simply means that people either don't believe it (un-belief - Hebrews 4:9-11), don't know about it (lack of knowledge - Hosea 4:6), can't understand it (lack of vision - Proverbs 29:18), or don't believe Jesus took their sickness upon His Body so they don't have to have it (not understanding the Lord's Body - 1 Corinthians 11:28-30)

Perhaps you missed these scriptures...

Isaiah 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.

Psalm 103:2,3
2) Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3) Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Proverbs 4:20-22
20) My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21) Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22) For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ

1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Psalm 30:2
O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me

Psalm 42:11
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.

Psalm 107:20
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions (Read all of Psalms 107)

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Psalm 34:10
The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing

Psalm 97:10
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked

Psalm 119:93
I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Maccie · Mar 29, 2005

rockrz said:
See, God has already healed us...but not everybody is receiving healing!

Yeah, I've heard that one too. When you break your leg, I look forward to hearing how you "claim the healing" and walk around on your broken leg.

I don't know if you have any children, but when your child gets chicken pox, or whatever, are you going to expect him/her to claim their own healing, or can you do it for them? And when the spots don't disappear at once, who gets the blame - your child or yourself?

You sound young and immature. When you have had a little more experience of life, I'm sure your views will change.

Strong in Him · Mar 29, 2005

Rockrz said:
No, you have decided that it's not automatic for you, therefore you will never get any healing beyond what a doctor can provide for you. Besides, if it's not your right as a Christian to be healed, how dare you even go to a doctor and try to un-do what may be the will of God for you!?!?!?!

Healing is part of the deliverance that is in salvation. Go look up salvation in the original Greek and you will find it means deliverance! God has already provided deliverance from all the works of the devil, including sickness. (see 1 John 3:8).

You carry on quoting selected scriptures to prove your point if you like. I know how I've prayed for physical healing, I know my faith, I know what the Lord has said to me about it. I also know that there are other Christians, besides me, who have believed those verses, prayed for physical healing and not yet received it. God is not a slot machine - we don't push a button labelled prayer, or praise and get what we want from him.
If full health was a matter of confessing God's word; if healing is linked to faith and positive confession, then believers would all be gloriously healthy and non believers would all have terminal illnesses. We wouldn't need the NHS, just tell God we are better and we will be. People would be turning to Christ, not for forgiveness and eternal life, but because they wanted to be free from their illnesses.

The apostle Paul said he would boast of his weaknesses because it was in them that the power of Christ would be seen. A friend of mine says the more cracked we are, the more Jesus can shine through.
I have had people tell me that if God can use me with my problems, it gives them hope he can use them too. Have you?

I have been healed of painful memories, my relationship with God is growing in wholesomeness (if that's a word) all the time. When we die - and yes, you will too - this relationship with him will be all we have. If you don't have one, if you haven't learned to trust him in your troubles, and held onto his hand during the bad times, you're going to be in trouble. I don't want that.

Rockrz said:
The way you apply and consider God's Word as ministering to your life, is the measure of results you're going to get in your life. If you have allowed the devil (and well meaning un-believing Christians) to talk you into believing God doesn't always heal just because you have physical evidence of Christians being sick...then you're stuck in this natural realm where your physical health is concerned!

I have been blessed in the heavenly realm with every spiritual blessing in Christ, I know that nothing can seperate me from the love of God, I am being changed into the Lord's likeness. If the Lord wanted to give me perfect physical health too, I wouldn't object. But this body is only temporary, the heathiest body in the world still ages and will die one day. Only the spirit lives forever. What's the health of your spirit like?

I keep my eyes on Jesus - not on the issue of healing. This is not from the devil, he wants to use everything he can to keep our eyes off Jesus. Obsession with physical health may well be one such thing.

Maccie · Mar 29, 2005

Brilliantly said!

Strong in Him · Mar 29, 2005

Thank you.

Rockrz · Mar 29, 2005

No problem...go ahead and get sick along with those that have no Covenant with God. It's not my problem. I've shared with you fellas what God has to say, but you seem to want to believe what you feel and what you see above what God says, that will change what you feel and what you see if you only knew it!

No problem. Wanna buy some insurance?

kayanne · Mar 29, 2005

Rockrz said:
Just because everybody isn't receiving it, does not mean it's not what God wants. It just simply means that people either don't believe it (un-belief - Hebrews 4:9-11), don't know about it (lack of knowledge - Hosea 4:6), can't understand it (lack of vision - Proverbs 29:18), or don't believe Jesus took their sickness upon His Body so they don't have to have it (not understanding the Lord's Body - 1 Corinthians 11:28-30)

I'm curious how this thinking applies to infants, pre-born children who die in the womb, young children, or mentally incompetant people of any age. Children's hospitals around the world are filled with little babies and children who are sick and dying---is this due to their lack of faith?

Yours is a very cruel mindset. Like another responder earlier, I thought of Joni Erickson Tada. I read her first biography when I was 17 years old. One of the things that stuck with me the most from that book was how horrible it made her feel when people would say that a lack of faith prevented her from being healed. Can you imagine praying and believing and pleading and trusting God for YEARS for healing, all the while having people tell you that you don't have enough FAITH?!?

If we could always be healed just by claiming it, then no one would ever have to die. And we know that the wages of sin is death. It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgement.

Where does scripture say God wants us to be sick?

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