Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
no, i was on a forum over there, similar to this one. the moderator barged in and told me i was an idiot basically. all these people hanging around on the forum were supposed experts in everything, and i was a ill educated baffoon.
the info that they had posted was a line up of hominid skulls. it might be better now. i havn't been back there.
i read about the australopithecines and i get conflicting info. i would like to know if lucy really did walk upright. i'd like to know how different homo erectus was from homo sapiens.. the skeleton. you cant trust creationist info as they believe that homo erectus and nearndethals were humans, with funny shaped heads. and they dont seem to know what to make of australopithecines. it would be good if they found another australopithecine skeleton.
It's fringe forums in general I think. On the imdb board for "Ancient Aliens" there's a poster who's convinced that me and another poster are coworkers and in cahoots to defame the show's good name.So please explain. You have my interest. (Do origins forums ALWAYS focus on various "conspiracy theories" and sinister forces?)
I didn't know that TalkOrigins.org had a public forum. But I'm surprised that you would make a general statement that "TalkOrigins.org sucks" when you aren't even talking about the huge library of articles there but instead are referring to the remarks which ANYONE can make on their open-to-the-public discussion forum (even if staffers participate on the forum.) Isn't that a bit like critiquing a journal NOT by the articles but by the "Letters to the Editor" section at the front of it?
it's just that it's like a war between them and answers in genesis, on the internet. from my experience they'v got a horrible attitude. i found out eventually that coal was carbon dated by AIG, and they said that they got a date at the tail end for carbon dating at 40,000 years.
try and get that info out of talk origins, no way, because they are completely blinkered.. yes it might be wrong to tar them all with the same brush, but that is my experience of them.
And is your dad verysincere?Mother and son. I'm visiting my parents---who got me interested in this forum---and I failed to log out of her account and log into my own. She had left her Firefox browser open and I like to use Opera on the same machine, and I got mixed up between the two.
And is your dad verysincere?
(talkorigins.org) - its a huddle. and the info isn't good.
I'm curious: What possible advantage would "this person is using more than two names" gain? What "trick" is accomplished by this? ("This trick does not work" for what???) I know that on Yahoo Answers some people play multiple accounts in order to vote more points for their main identity (although I've never been able to figure out what value such "points" have.) But ChristianForums doesn't give out any points or prizes, so what would be the purpose of multiple accounts?
Plus, if I used my mother's account instead of my own, I would be allowed to post links, because my small post count prohibits me from using them until I have some large number of posts in my history.
So please explain. You have my interest. (Do origins forums ALWAYS focus on various "conspiracy theories" and sinister forces?)
Please don't be defensive. I've spent some time on other internet forums that deal with the controversies of politics or religion, and alternative accounts, or "alts", are pretty common. Identifying them is a kind of sport. So I'm sure you understand that a double post will invite that kind of scrutiny.
I'm curious: What possible advantage would "this person is using more than two names" gain? What "trick" is accomplished by this? ("This trick does not work" for what???) I know that on Yahoo Answers some people play multiple accounts in order to vote more points for their main identity (although I've never been able to figure out what value such "points" have.) But ChristianForums doesn't give out any points or prizes, so what would be the purpose of multiple accounts?
Plus, if I used my mother's account instead of my own, I would be allowed to post links, because my small post count prohibits me from using them until I have some large number of posts in my history.
So please explain. You have my interest. (Do origins forums ALWAYS focus on various "conspiracy theories" and sinister forces?)
What just happened here? Are you two the same person?
Can you give me some examples of "the info isn't good" at Talkorigins.org?
There are several hundred australopithecine specimens.
I can tell you why I think some of it is not...Right off the bat from physics we know that the amount of C-14 increases during times of greater Cosmic Ray bombardment (which I am sure happened multiple times in earth history). Thus the predictable “assumed” mother load is deceptive. So in Münnich KO, Östlund HG, de Vries H (1958). "Carbon-14 Activity during the past 5,000 Years". Nature 182 (4647): 1432–3. Bibcode 1958Natur.182.1432M. doi:10.1038/1821432a0 (is that specific enough), de Vries showed this to us...C-14 in the atmosphere thus in organisms and trees etc., varies according to locality and time, so to try and compensate for this they employ calibration curves which lead to what I have called here the "line of best guess". Best guess does not equal IS.
Talk Origins opinions on dating assume that the number of atoms of the daughter isotope originally in the rock or mineral when it crystallized can be known (which it cannot). In other words, it is assumed that we can know the initial conditions when the rock or mineral formed (which we do not).
They assume a constant rate of decay (which we know actually can and does fluctuate under differing conditions) and as a result they further assume that the number of atoms of the parent and daughter isotopes have not been altered since the rock or mineral crystallized. In other words, it is assumed that the rock or mineral remained closed to loss or gain assumptions based on the unknown state of the original parent and/or daughter isotopes.
That's because you don't understand how the calibration process works.
Tree rings are the standard. We can test individual rings, because only the outer ring is still "alive" absorbing the atmospheric C14. So, when we test the individual rings, we can know what the atmosphere was like when that ring was the outermost ring, collecting the C14.
Except that beyond about 10,000 years the trees are now silica and cannot yield truly accurate C-14 assessment.
Then, we verify this calibration by comparing the adjusted carbon measurement to lake varves, coral, ice cores, speleothems, and even artifacts of known age. What we find is, for example, the 4000th tree ring contains approximately the same ratio of C14 as the 4000th lake varve. Furthermore, the true C14 ratio does not stray from the tree ring chronology by more than about 800 years throughout the entire tree ring chronology of 13,000 years.
Yes this works fine up to and a little beyond such a date but comparisons between Radio-Carbon years and known historical years show a variance in conclusion such that at 21,000 RC years we differ by 3,000 years with other historical analyses. And by 50,000 RC years other methods demonstrate there to only have been 36,000 years (and the farther one goes back in time the broader the variance becomes).
We can DETERMINE the initial content of the daughter isotope when we plot the data on a graph called an isochron. A couple of the methods can usually be assumed to have close to zero initial daughter because of how the isotopes are trapped and/or escape from the rocks. But this assumption is not necessary. We can, and do, check it to make sure, using the isochron or age spectrum methods.
Now I realize most of this opinion is coming out of my head and old notes I have collected over the years and you are correct in that I know little about the technicalities of Isochron dating (my field of knowledge is biology) but I have been told by Professor Daniel Schrag of Harvard University in a discussion forum a few years back that there are other reliable, intelligent, published scientists who question the reliability in some cases and that in quality scientific presentation their views should be (and among real scientists is) respected even if disagreed with ( IMO contrary data or evidence of possible error in findings or in what results were expected, should not be discarded but reported along with the concluding scientists own position as well as their reasons for why they disagree with the possibly dissenting information which is the case with most scientists and what they publish). The sad thing for me is that in forums like these dissenters are not respected or their views really looked at for what they suggest.
Also I once read (and noted) a discussion forum where one researcher named Bale (sorry I no longer have a specific reference, but read his assessment and then comment) who says that in isochron dating, ages are obtained from the slope of a line based on isotope ratios measured for different minerals of the same age. He said, The theory is that, although the different minerals have different initial amounts of the radioactive parent, the same percentage of the parent will decay in each case, with the result that the measured isotope ratios will fall on a line but that there are different isochron systems.
G. Brent Dalrymple, Ph. D., "Radiometric Dating, Geologic Time, and the age of the Earth: A Reply to 'Scientific' Creationism," February, 1982, published by the U.S Geological Survey, discusses the Rb-Sr isochron, which plots the ratio Sr(87)/Sr(86) as a function of the ratio Rb(87)/Sr(86) ratio:
"When a rock is first formed, say from a magma, the Sr(87)/Sr(86) ratios in all of the minerals will be the same, regardless of the rubidium or strontium contents of the minerals, so all of the samples will plot on a horizontal line." (page 32)
However, Brooks, James, and Hart (C. Brooks, D.E. James, and S.R. Hart, "Ancient Lithosphere: Its Role in Young Continental Volcanism," Science, Vol. 193, September 17, 1976, pages 1086-1094, have found that this statement is not always true. They studied 30 examples given in the peer reviewed literature, correcting where necessary
So according to isochron theory, the resulting diagrams, called pseudo-isochrons, should always be horizontal lines. However, the authors report:
"Correlation theory and regression analysis indicate that most of these psuedoisochrons have slopes significantly different from zero at confidence levels up to 95 percent (in some cases up to 99.9 percent) and that they define excess "ages" ranging from 70 million years to more than 3000 million years." (see page 1087)
So Bale asked we please note that the upper limit of error magnitude would give a newly formed rock an "age" 75% of the believed age of the earth. The paper states that the cause of the error (which is really just data which disagrees with their expected results and is not contamination at all which in SOME cases is an excuse used to throw out or disregard the contrary findings) could be contamination (could be does not equal IS), but also states a number of reasons for believing it is not, putting forth the idea that the results represent the age of the underlying mantle that was the source of the magma. The conclusion of the authors is:
"One serious consequence of the mantle isochron model is that crystallization ages determined on basic igneous rocks by the Rb-Sr whole rock technique can be greater than the true age by many hundreds of millions of years. This problem of inherited age is more serious for younger rocks , and there are well-documented instances of conflicts between stratigraphic age and Rb-Sr age in the literature." (see page 1093).
This study shows the apparent results gave too ancient of a date for SOME SP<samples (thus demonstrating probable inadequacies within this very excellent method). However, knowing these discrepancies, the authors of the study still contended that the dates represented real dates for the earth's mantle (thus, the probable possibility was excluded from the conclusion).
See also Calculation of 230 TH/U Isochrons, Ages, and Errors shared by , K, R, Ludwig (Geological Survey, Mail Stop 963, Denver, CO 80225-0046, USA),and D. M. Titterington (University of Glasgow, Department of Statistics, Glasgow G12 8QW, United Kingdom) where it is pointed out that when analytical errors are responsible for the scatter of points on a 230Th-234U-238U isochron diagram, the isochron should be fitted by a technique that weights the points according to their analytical errors and error correlations, and either takes into account the presence of some of the same data in two coupled XY isochrons or (equivalently not specifically) uses a single, three-dimensional XYZ isochron. Which they know and honestly admit is a method based on maximum-likelihood estimation (thus not on established indisputable fact). Therefore other conclusions are possible, even probable, and may in fact be the case. (all parentheses mine)
While it is assumed that the rate of decay has been constant, we have very good reason to think so. Contrary to your claim, we have not observed ANY fluctuations in decay rates from any isotope used for radiometric dating, despite rugged attempts to do so. There have been VERY tiny fluctuations in isotopes which are not used for radiometric dating, but these fluctuations are less than 1%, not the orders of magnitude required to explain a 6000 year old earth.
And I also do not believe in a 6,000 year old earth, but I want you to know your comments are noted, I appreciate them, and I will explore these comments more fully.
As for the system remaining closed. You are wrong again, we do not assume that, we test for it. When a system has not remained closed, it is generally very obvious when we plot an isochron. The only way an isochron can remain a straight line, is if the system has remained closed. If there was diffusion of daughter element, or contamination of parent element, then the data points will not fall on a line. These are not considered good dates, and are not published as such.
Here I do have an issue which would be that because something does not fit the model or the expected results this does not necessarily imply contamination unless can show how and when and by what means something was contaminated at least define what the contamination actually was and how it occurred (and theoretical speculation on this would be fine so long as it was admitted and understood to be theoretical speculation). And I did not say the system remains closed.
Thanks
Paul
Thanks for the links, I will look into them further when I have time.
Concerning the isochrons: based on your quotes, I believe the authors are talking about mixing, which can occur, and is documented. However, we have a test to check for that, using a different graph, which catches it most of the time. The problem with assuming that this is a constant problem, and that mixing occurs regularly, is that we would often (up to 50% of the time, if it is assumed that mixing always occurs) find negative slopes. But we don't see this. The large majority of the time, the slopes are positive.
Likewise, if the mixing had occurred, I would think it would be highly improbable that the Rb/Sr and Ur/Pb isotopes would mix in such a way that they both still gave correlating dates. I'll have to double check on that to be sure, though.
Sorry! You called yourself a "Young Earth Creationist Professor" so I assume now that this meant either you are a professor, who not being a "Young Earth Creationist" teaches this subject though not your field of expertise (like if a physicist tried to teach geology). Or else you are a professor who from your field teaches against YEC. So what are you a professor of?
1.So do we agree on question #1: do you seriously think it is a good idea to have your accountant do your brain surgery, on the basis that he's a competent accountant?
The answer is of course not neither would I want a geologist telling a nuclear physicist the meaning, cause, and presence of, Radio-metric halos, though he is free to give his insight into the nature of the rocks they may have been found in, but as for the how and why he is a bit outside his field of expertise (your very argument not mine).
4. Can you show some reference or reason why you think it (project steve) is "not really accurate"?
Definition of PARODY
1 : a literary or musical work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for comic effect or in ridicule
2: a feeble or ridiculous imitation
In other words it is constructed with the intent to mock and trivialize thus is subjective in nature.
5. What examples (of "problematic fossils" ) do you really mean (with citations)?
Again I gave you two examples and though different ones are given any number of reasons or excuses for why they appear in the geological column they do, and those explanations CAN mean some of these explanations but CAN be seen differently (which does not mean they are incorrect).
No I don't, I understand the terms perfectly well and I believe evolution in the column supports sudden explosions as well as varied paces.
And no, "catastrophe theory" is a legitimate scientifically possible explanation, and uniformitarianism and gradualism are not their "buzzwords"...you are not being honest here.
And by the way...you are slowly revealing yourself...
.I think we have spoken before...certain phrases and styles of argument seem to be specifically familiar. I could be incorrect on this but it is peculiar...it is as if one spirit speaks through two mouths
Sorry I have never read Morris and Whitcomb but maybe I should, maybe there is some truth buried therein if it merits such condemnation from your side (as I have been pointed to this book before but have previously ignored it). Hmmm?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?