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Where do the flood strata start and end?

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NoPostDocFrock

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I didn't know that TalkOrigins.org had a public forum. But I'm surprised that you would make a general statement that "TalkOrigins.org sucks" when you aren't even talking about the huge library of articles there but instead are referring to the remarks which ANYONE can make on their open-to-the-public discussion forum (even if staffers participate on the forum.) Isn't that a bit like critiquing a journal NOT by the articles but by the "Letters to the Editor" section at the front of it?
 
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troodon

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So please explain. You have my interest. (Do origins forums ALWAYS focus on various "conspiracy theories" and sinister forces?)
It's fringe forums in general I think. On the imdb board for "Ancient Aliens" there's a poster who's convinced that me and another poster are coworkers and in cahoots to defame the show's good name.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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it's just that it's like a war between them and answers in genesis, on the internet. from my experience they'v got a horrible attitude. i found out eventually that coal was carbon dated by AIG, and they said that they got a date at the tail end for carbon dating at 40,000 years.
try and get that info out of talk origins, no way, because they are completely blinkered.. yes it might be wrong to tar them all with the same brush, but that is my experience of them.
 
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I think you need to read more carefully. I recall TalkOrigins quite clearly addressing that very issue. As you yourself said, AiG got a date at the "tail end" of the Carbon-14 dating range where "noise" in measurements often makes the results quite tenuous. Plus, AiG pretends that the C-14 is zero at higher ages---when in fact it is an asymptotic curve which flattens out and doesn't actually reach zero. In any case, I learned long ago to take ANYTHING AiG (and the RATE Project) says with a grain of salt---because when ever I check out a claim exhaustively or trace a citation to an original source, time and again they've either lied or completely misunderstood the material.

Moreover, a theory is not toppled by some single anomaly, mystery, or item of questionable provenance. And creationists have been notorious for sending the wrong kinds of samples to the wrong kind of lab and/or demanding that a lab ignore that a sample was improperly prepared. My favorite example of that was when one creationist organization demanded C-14 testing on a sample that had sat in a museum display case for years with shellac (carbon material!) painted on it. OF COURSE, it gave a crazy result---just like mollusk shells aren't meant to be used in carbon dating because you are dating the wrong material!

I'm sure if you look long enough, TalkOrigins has made mistakes. But like scientists in general, they correct theirs---while I've watched wrong information remain on creationist websites (including famous creationist fossil hoaxes) for years. My father was part of the YEC movement in the 1960's and he has great stories about Duane Gish and Henry Morris being caught lying and promising to remove erroneous claims from the next editions of their books---but somehow never got around to it.

I'm just amazed that you are describing the same TalkOrigins.org that I've been reading for years. By any comparison of professionalism, they bury AiG and ICR, which are little more than running gags and punchlines (in the form of cliches and slogans.)
 
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ChetSinger

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And is your dad verysincere?
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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I think you need to read more carefully. I recall TalkOrigins quite clearly addressing that very issue. As you yourself said, AiG got a date at the "tail end" of the Carbon-14 dating range where "noise" in measurements often makes the results quite tenuous. Plus, AiG pretends that the C-14 is zero at higher ages---when in fact it is an asymptotic curve which flattens out and doesn't actually reach zero. In any case, I learned long ago to take ANYTHING AiG (and the RATE Project) says with a grain of salt---because when ever I check out a claim exhaustively or trace a citation to an original source, time and again they've either lied or completely misunderstood the material.

the thing about AIG is that they were honest enough to publish the carbon date for coal, which is most likely to be the result of near-zero, and so older than 40-50,000 years, so their 6000 years creation goes out the window.
i tend to read books these days, when it comes to evo/creation topic. i want to get a balanced view, so i read books by atheists... including books on christianity, by atheists.
 
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Papias

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HCG wrote:

(talkorigins.org) - its a huddle. and the info isn't good.

Um, the info isn't good? You've got to be kidding me, they've been endorsed by a huge list of the top scientific organizations, covering millions of geologists, biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, and more, including the Smithsonian. Here are some of their endorsements: Talk Origins Archive Awards Page

Now, it sounds like someone in one of the forums talked mean to you. Well, that's how the internet works. I don't see how that reflects on talkorigins - they can't very well prevent everyone on the internet from being a jerk.

It's not much of a battle between them and AIG. AIG is supported by practically no experts. AIG's arguments only work on those who don't know enough about the subject to see their constant string of falsehoods.

Papias
 
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juvenissun

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I don't care who you are. I only read what you said and see how you respond. If I ignored one of you, I will probably ignore the other two of you sooner or later.
 
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ChetSinger

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Please don't be defensive. I've spent some time on other internet forums that deal with the controversies of politics or religion, and alternative accounts, or "alts", are pretty common. Identifying them is a kind of sport. So I'm sure you understand that a double post will invite that kind of scrutiny.

Your father, verysincere, has described himself as a researcher who is investigating the YEC movement, no? I guess that makes a Christian such as me a kind of lab mouse, right? And forum alts can be useful tools in sociological research, yes?

But if you say you're not using alts, then you're not. That's your business. Besides, your unintended double post has added some spice to the day! Thanks for that.
 
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pshun2404

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What just happened here? Are you two the same person?

Yeah! I picked up on this also...possibly three persons...deception is clearly a cue to integrity as an intellect...so be careful for anything this poster says because those that support this person so closely may in fact be the same person in disguise...

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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Can you give me some examples of "the info isn't good" at Talkorigins.org?

I can tell you why I think some of it is not...Right off the bat from physics we know that the amount of C-14 increases during times of greater Cosmic Ray bombardment (which I am sure happened multiple times in earth history). Thus the predictable “assumed” mother load is deceptive. So in Münnich KO, Östlund HG, de Vries H (1958). "Carbon-14 Activity during the past 5,000 Years". Nature 182 (4647): 1432–3. Bibcode 1958Natur.182.1432M. doi:10.1038/1821432a0 (is that specific enough), de Vries showed this to us...C-14 in the atmosphere thus in organisms and trees etc., varies according to locality and time, so to try and compensate for this they employ calibration curves which lead to what I have called here the "line of best guess". Best guess does not equal IS.


Talk Origins opinions on dating assume that the number of atoms of the daughter isotope originally in the rock or mineral when it crystallized can be known (which it cannot). In other words, it is assumed that we can know the initial conditions when the rock or mineral formed (which we do not).

They assume a constant rate of decay (which we know actually can and does fluctuate under differing conditions) and as a result they further assume that the number of atoms of the parent and daughter isotopes have not been altered since the rock or mineral crystallized. In other words, it is assumed that the rock or mineral remained closed to loss or gain assumptions based on the unknown state of the original parent and/or daughter isotopes.

So Talk Origins works from an assumption that the rate of decay of the parent isotope is known accurately (and they know it is not). Very deceptive...


There were no humans to observe or determine the original numbers of atoms of the daughter isotopes, or to determine that the rocks or minerals have remained closed to loss or gain of parent and/or daughter isotopes, and to determine if the rate of decay of the parent isotope has remained constant. These assumptions are not provable so why present them as if they are established fact.


Yours paraphrasedly

Louis the 41st (no really, that's who I really am)
 
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46AND2

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That's because you don't understand how the calibration process works.

Tree rings are the standard. We can test individual rings, because only the outer ring is still "alive" absorbing the atmospheric C14. So, when we test the individual rings, we can know what the atmosphere was like when that ring was the outermost ring, collecting the C14.

Then, we verify this calibration by comparing the adjusted carbon measurement to lake varves, coral, ice cores, speleothems, and even artifacts of known age. What we find is, for example, the 4000th tree ring contains approximately the same ratio of C14 as the 4000th lake varve. Furthermore, the true C14 ratio does not stray from the tree ring chronology by more than about 800 years throughout the entire tree ring chronology of 13,000 years.



Wrong. We can DETERMINE the initial content of the daughter isotope when we plot the data on a graph called an isochron. A couple of the methods can usually be assumed to have close to zero initial daughter because of how the isotopes are trapped and/or escape from the rocks. But this assumption is not necessary. We can, and do, check it to make sure, using the isochron or age spectrum methods.


While it is assumed that the rate of decay has been constant, we have very good reason to think so. Contrary to your claim, we have not observed ANY fluctuations in decay rates from any isotope used for radiometric dating, despite rugged attempts to do so. There have been VERY tiny fluctuations in isotopes which are not used for radiometric dating, but these fluctuations are less than 1%, not the orders of magnitude required to explain a 6000 year old earth.

As for the system remaining closed. You are wrong again, we do not assume that, we test for it. When a system has not remained closed, it is generally very obvious when we plot an isochron. The only way an isochron can remain a straight line, is if the system has remained closed. If there was diffusion of daughter element, or contamination of parent element, then the data points will not fall on a line. These are not considered good dates, and are not published as such.



All of your "assumptions," if we did not have methods to account for them, would be foolhardy for any scientist to accept. It simply strains credulity that they would not notice this stuff.

Indeed, where do you think your apologists got their information from? It was from papers published BY SCIENTISTS discussing issues with radiometric dating. What your apologists don't tell you, is that those same papers deal with the RESOLUTIONS for these issues.

Radiometric dating is extremely robust, and your simple rebuttals have been dealt with, by scientists, DECADES ago. They are non-factors.
 
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pshun2404

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That's because you don't understand how the calibration process works.

Tree rings are the standard. We can test individual rings, because only the outer ring is still "alive" absorbing the atmospheric C14. So, when we test the individual rings, we can know what the atmosphere was like when that ring was the outermost ring, collecting the C14.
Except that beyond about 10,000 years the trees are now silica and cannot yield truly accurate C-14 assessment.


Then, we verify this calibration by comparing the adjusted carbon measurement to lake varves, coral, ice cores, speleothems, and even artifacts of known age. What we find is, for example, the 4000th tree ring contains approximately the same ratio of C14 as the 4000th lake varve. Furthermore, the true C14 ratio does not stray from the tree ring chronology by more than about 800 years throughout the entire tree ring chronology of 13,000 years.

Yes this works fine up to and a little beyond such a date but comparisons between Radio-Carbon years and known historical years show a variance in conclusion such that at 21,000 RC years we differ by 3,000 years with other historical analyses. And by 50,000 RC years other methods demonstrate there to only have been 36,000 years (and the farther one goes back in time the broader the variance becomes).

We can DETERMINE the initial content of the daughter isotope when we plot the data on a graph called an isochron. A couple of the methods can usually be assumed to have close to zero initial daughter because of how the isotopes are trapped and/or escape from the rocks. But this assumption is not necessary. We can, and do, check it to make sure, using the isochron or age spectrum methods.

Now I realize most of this opinion is coming out of my head and old notes I have collected over the years and you are correct in that I know little about the technicalities of Isochron dating (my field of knowledge is biology) but I have been told by Professor Daniel Schrag of Harvard University in a discussion forum a few years back that there are other reliable, intelligent, published scientists who question the reliability in some cases and that in quality scientific presentation their views should be (and among real scientists is) respected even if disagreed with ( IMO contrary data or evidence of possible error in findings or in what results were expected, should not be discarded but reported along with the concluding scientists own position as well as their reasons for why they disagree with the possibly dissenting information…which is the case with most scientists and what they publish). The sad thing for me is that in forums like these dissenters are not respected or their views really looked at for what they suggest.

Also I once read (and noted) a discussion forum where one researcher named Bale (sorry I no longer have a specific reference, but read his assessment and then comment) who says that in isochron dating, ages are obtained from the slope of a line based on isotope ratios measured for different minerals of the same age. He said, “The theory is that, although the different minerals have different initial amounts of the radioactive parent, the same percentage of the parent will decay in each case, with the result that the measured isotope ratios will fall on a line but that there are different isochron systems. “


G. Brent Dalrymple, Ph. D., "Radiometric Dating, Geologic Time, and the age of the Earth: A Reply to 'Scientific' Creationism," February, 1982, published by the U.S Geological Survey, discusses the Rb-Sr isochron, which plots the ratio Sr(87)/Sr(86) as a function of the ratio Rb(87)/Sr(86) ratio:


"When a rock is first formed, say from a magma, the Sr(87)/Sr(86) ratios in all of the minerals will be the same, regardless of the rubidium or strontium contents of the minerals, so all of the samples will plot on a horizontal line." (page 32)


However, Brooks, James, and Hart (C. Brooks, D.E. James, and S.R. Hart, "Ancient Lithosphere: Its Role in Young Continental Volcanism," Science, Vol. 193, September 17, 1976, pages 1086-1094, have found that this statement is not always true. They studied 30 examples given in the peer reviewed literature, correcting where necessary…


So according to isochron theory, the resulting diagrams, called pseudo-isochrons, should always be horizontal lines. However, the authors report:


"Correlation theory and regression analysis indicate that most of these psuedoisochrons have slopes significantly different from zero at confidence levels up to 95 percent (in some cases up to 99.9 percent) and that they define excess "ages" ranging from 70 million years to more than 3000 million years." (see page 1087)


So Bale asked we please note that “the upper limit of error magnitude would give a newly formed rock an "age" 75% of the believed age of the earth.” The paper states that the cause of the error (which is really just data which disagrees with their expected results and is not “contamination” at all which in SOME cases is an excuse used to throw out or disregard the contrary findings) “could be contamination” (could be does not equal IS), but also states a number of reasons for believing it is not, putting forth the idea that the results represent the age of the underlying mantle that was the source of the magma. The conclusion of the authors is:


"One serious consequence of the mantle isochron model is that crystallization ages determined on basic igneous rocks by the Rb-Sr whole rock technique can be greater than the true age by many hundreds of millions of years. This problem of inherited age is more serious for younger rocks , and there are well-documented instances of conflicts between stratigraphic age and Rb-Sr age in the literature." (see page 1093).


This study shows the apparent results gave too ancient of a date for SOME SP<samples (thus demonstrating probable inadequacies within this very excellent method). However, knowing these discrepancies, the authors of the study still contended that the dates represented real dates for the earth's mantle (thus, the probable possibility was excluded from the conclusion).


See also &#8220;Calculation of 230 TH/U Isochrons, Ages, and Errors&#8221; shared by , K, R, Ludwig (Geological Survey, Mail Stop 963, Denver, CO 80225-0046, USA),and D. M. Titterington (University of Glasgow, Department of Statistics, Glasgow G12 8QW, United Kingdom) where it is pointed out that &#8220;when analytical errors are responsible for the scatter of points on a 230Th-234U-238U isochron diagram&#8221;, the isochron should be fitted by a technique that &#8220;weights the points according to their analytical errors and error correlations, and either takes into account the presence of some of the same data in two coupled XY isochrons or (equivalently not specifically) uses a single, three-dimensional XYZ isochron.&#8221; Which they know and honestly admit is &#8220;a method based on maximum-likelihood estimation&#8221; (thus not on established indisputable fact). Therefore other conclusions are possible, even probable, and may in fact be the case. (all parentheses mine)

While it is assumed that the rate of decay has been constant, we have very good reason to think so. Contrary to your claim, we have not observed ANY fluctuations in decay rates from any isotope used for radiometric dating, despite rugged attempts to do so. There have been VERY tiny fluctuations in isotopes which are not used for radiometric dating, but these fluctuations are less than 1%, not the orders of magnitude required to explain a 6000 year old earth.

And I also do not believe in a 6,000 year old earth, but I want you to know your comments are noted, I appreciate them, and I will explore these comments more fully.

As for the system remaining closed. You are wrong again, we do not assume that, we test for it. When a system has not remained closed, it is generally very obvious when we plot an isochron. The only way an isochron can remain a straight line, is if the system has remained closed. If there was diffusion of daughter element, or contamination of parent element, then the data points will not fall on a line. These are not considered good dates, and are not published as such.

Here I do have an issue which would be that because something does not fit the model or the expected results this does not necessarily imply contamination unless can show how and when and by what means something was contaminated&#8230;at least define what the contamination actually was and how it occurred (and theoretical speculation on this would be fine so long as it was admitted and understood to be theoretical speculation). And I did not say the system remains closed.

Thanks

Paul
 
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46AND2

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Thanks for the links, I will look into them further when I have time.

Concerning the isochrons: based on your quotes, I believe the authors are talking about mixing, which can occur, and is documented. However, we have a test to check for that, using a different graph, which catches it most of the time. The problem with assuming that this is a constant problem, and that mixing occurs regularly, is that we would often (up to 50% of the time, if it is assumed that mixing always occurs) find negative slopes. But we don't see this. The large majority of the time, the slopes are positive.

Likewise, if the mixing had occurred, I would think it would be highly improbable that the Rb/Sr and Ur/Pb isotopes would mix in such a way that they both still gave correlating dates. I'll have to double check on that to be sure, though.
 
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pshun2404

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Interesting! I also have been inspired based on your post to go and learn more about this subject of Isochrons (as admittedly I am lacking here...for sure). Thanks

Paul
 
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Papias

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Paul wrote:


No, none of that.

Oh...... Now I think I see what is going on. You appear to have made two mistakes.

First, it appears you are confusing me with verysincere, who did write about being a former YEC and a professor. I'm not him.

Second - you seem to have garbled his story anyway. He described how he used to be a YEC, is not now, and has been a professor both when he was YEC and up through now.

Wow, if that's what you got out of verysincere's posts, I hope you can see why we ask for a reference when you say a given article says such and such........




You again missed the point. The fact that Gentry is wrong about the type of deposit he's talkin about means that his overall YEC argument is just plain wrong. It sounds like we both agree that Gentry's YEC argument is false, right?

3. So it sounds like the published articles by Gentry are irrelevant, because we agree they don't help his incompetence in geology.


As has been pointed out by another poster as well, Project Steve uses real data to mock the creationist lists. In doing so, the real data (and the real point) are still completely accurate.


No, you didn't. I asked for citiations, not your descriptions and stories. You could be writing anything - mis remembering (as we saw in the case of me as a YEC professor), copying stuff from a creationist website, making stuff up, whatever. That's why I asked for sources to look up some of these supposed "examples".

Papias
 
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MrsLurking

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No I don't, I understand the terms perfectly well and I believe evolution in the column supports sudden explosions as well as varied paces.

Of course it does.

My point you misuse some terms as buzzwords in the same ways that creationists use them---regardless if you are a creationist or not.

And you even completely misunderstood the meaning of the word PARODY and totally botched its implications in the case of Project Steve. Now I assume that one explanation of these problems is that English is a second language for you. (Indeed, your problems with PARODY confirmed my suspicions in spades.) But I'm certainly not putting you down for that. English is no easy language to master and I faced similar obstacles during the grad work.


And no, "catastrophe theory" is a legitimate scientifically possible explanation, and uniformitarianism and gradualism are not their "buzzwords"...you are not being honest here.

Yes I am. Creationists use those words DIFFERENTLY (and more as buzzwords) than the correct geologists meanings.


And by the way...you are slowly revealing yourself...

How fun for you.


.I think we have spoken before...certain phrases and styles of argument seem to be specifically familiar. I could be incorrect on this but it is peculiar...it is as if one spirit speaks through two mouths

And that is because you've dealt with my husband, VerySincere, who was my faculty adviser and later I was his T.A. when I was in the Ph.D. program. We are currently collaborating on research which will culminate in several projects including a book on the history of American young earth creationism So I should hope we have most of the same perspectives, although he is the one who had first hand dealings with Gish and Morris (and Whitcomb to a degree.)


Sorry I have never read Morris and Whitcomb but maybe I should, maybe there is some truth buried therein if it merits such condemnation from your side (as I have been pointed to this book before but have previously ignored it). Hmmm?

If you wish to understand the misuse of scientific terms within "creation science" and how many of the buzz words developed and became more important to YECs than anyone else, THE GENESIS FLOOD will explain a lot for you. When it came out in 1961-1962, it drew a lot of Christians into the "creation science" movement including my husband.

As to the Coelacanth, I've ;talked about it on multiple forums but don't recall if I did here. Scientists thought it was extinct ---and the fossils species certainly were --- but other species of the Coelacanth order were eventually found in the Indian Ocean. I assume that you understand that this poses absolutely no problem for the theory of evolution, just as a herd of dinosaurs roaming somewhere in Africa wouldn't challenge anything. Just as with the Coelacanth, evolution would have impacted the taxonomic genera, families, and orders over time. Varied rates of changes depending upon the stability or rapid changes of the environment will always impact populations and varied rates of genetic changes.

My husband has finished his work on CF and the other forums but my son and I are still collecting data on on a few remaining issues. (We've usually managed to keep our CF accounts separate but because we sometimes use another family member's computer, there have been a few instances where one of us forgot to log out and login under our own, so sometimes that has meant posting under the wrong username. But because we all hold similar positions on these topics, it shouldn't made much difference. My husband is now Professor Emeritus but I'm still teaching. Our son has a one year post-doc but does some lecturing.)
 
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