Where do other people get moral systems?

Gunny · May 21, 2002

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams

seebs · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by gunnysgt
The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams

There's a fascinating thread in General Apologetics; it's worth noting that at least a couple of the founding fathers felt that Christianity was essentially an insult to God.

I think the great brilliance was to use principles that came from Christianity as guidelines, but to carefully separate the church out from the state.

Gunny · May 21, 2002

"Two basic reasons underlie the attempt to separate America from its spiritual roots. First, the liberal goal of state socialism is incompatible with a citizenry who look to themselves and to God, rather than the state, for the satisfaction of their needs. Socialism requires that citizens do obeisance to the state as the Source from which all blessings flow. The supreme State can have no other God before it. The second reason for outlawing religion derives from the lobbying of those who wish their sins declared virtues. They seek the validation of the law, in the futile belief that the legal right to be wrong makes wrong right." --Linda Bowles

E-beth · May 21, 2002

Separation of church and state aside, I think that if the country embraced the basic tenets of the Bible, we would ALL be better off. The ten commandments are a perfect guideline of what is OK and what is not. But, since they are written in the *GASP* Bible, the instruction is far too often dismissed as "religious".

It seems ironic (not) that as our country turns away from God, our collective morality has taken a nose-dive.

I am comforted, though, because I know that God is still in control, He is not mocked, and He will win in the end.

seebs · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by E-beth
Separation of church and state aside, I think that if the country embraced the basic tenets of the Bible, we would ALL be better off. The ten commandments are a perfect guideline of what is OK and what is not. But, since they are written in the *GASP* Bible, the instruction is far too often dismissed as "religious".

It seems ironic (not) that as our country turns away from God, our collective morality has taken a nose-dive.

I feel that we, as Christians, share some portion of the responsibility for this. We are not always very good about making a good showing of our belief in morality.

I think a lot of people have learned to associate Christianity with intolerance and hatred... and this makes them inclined to assume that, whatever we're doing, it must be a bad idea.

No gods · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by E-beth
Separation of church and state aside, I think that if the country embraced the basic tenets of the Bible, we would ALL be better off. The ten commandments are a perfect guideline of what is OK and what is not. But, since they are written in the *GASP* Bible, the instruction is far too often dismissed as "religious".

It seems ironic (not) that as our country turns away from God, our collective morality has taken a nose-dive.

I am comforted, though, because I know that God is still in control, He is not mocked, and He will win in the end.

Which tenets of the bible are you refering to as basic? There are a lot of issues and opinions in the bible that I think are morally reprehensible. And according to the ten commandments, it is "OK" to have a slave, but it is not OK for your neighbor to wish he had one if he doesn't. Hmmmm.. perfect? Don't think so.

I think it is ironic that as our country turns away from the god of the bible, our laws are finally catching up with the world. Gays and lesbians are now able to marry and adopt in many states (hopefully ALL states someday!!!). We don't have slavery anymore. We have equal opportunity employment and anti-discrimination laws. The fact that christians have a higher divorce rate and a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by christians as opposed to atheists is a strong argument against the 'morality' of the religious.

Neo · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by E-beth
Separation of church and state aside, I think that if the country embraced the basic tenets of the Bible, we would ALL be better off. The ten commandments are a perfect guideline of what is OK and what is not. But, since they are written in the *GASP* Bible, the instruction is far too often dismissed as "religious".

It seems ironic (not) that as our country turns away from God, our collective morality has taken a nose-dive.

I am comforted, though, because I know that God is still in control, He is not mocked, and He will win in the end.

The Ten Commandments do not agree with the first amendment. Did you forget about religious freedom?

1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Americans can worship any God they want to, and they do not have to remember the Sabbath day, or keep it holy.

Also, there are two different sets of 'ten commandments', which one should we follow?

First Tables of Stone
(Exodus 20, "which Moses didst break")
1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Second Tables of Stone
(Exodus 34, "the words that were on the first")
1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.
4. All the first-born are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread
8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

seebs · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by No gods

I think it is ironic that as our country turns away from the god of the bible, our laws are finally catching up with the world. Gays and lesbians are now able to marry and adopt in many states (hopefully ALL states someday!!!). We don't have slavery anymore. We have equal opportunity employment and anti-discrimination laws. The fact that christians have a higher divorce rate and a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by christians as opposed to atheists is a strong argument against the 'morality' of the religious.

NG, I think you're being unfair on at least two of those.

Slavery may have been tolerated, or even endorsed, by the church, but *opposition* to slavery was, at first, a purely Christian idea.

As to the divorce rate: The problem is that the highest failure-rate for relationships is relationships where most non-Christians wouldn't even bother to get married. Counting this produces an inaccurate impression. I'd guess that Christians have a similar or marginally better rate of "relationships involving any sex at all that last until the death of one partner", even though more of the relationships that don't last ended up with a marriage certificate.

No gods · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by seebs

NG, I think you're being unfair on at least two of those.

Slavery may have been tolerated, or even endorsed, by the church, but *opposition* to slavery was, at first, a purely Christian idea.

Point taken. But the fact remains that many "good" christians not only tolerated or endorsed slavery, but took an active role in it.

As to the divorce rate: The problem is that the highest failure-rate for relationships is relationships where most non-Christians wouldn't even bother to get married. Counting this produces an inaccurate impression. I'd guess that Christians have a similar or marginally better rate of "relationships involving any sex at all that last until the death of one partner", even though more of the relationships that don't last ended up with a marriage certificate.

But divorce by christians is immoral in the christian church. Living with someone and breaking up is not considered immoral in the secular world. So which is more morally reprehensible? Professing a belief in god and getting married in the eyes of god (to have sex because it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage)and then getting divorced. OR living with someone to test the water and then leaving without have made a commitment in front of god and family, vowing to love and honor one another until death???

seebs · May 21, 2002

Originally posted by No gods

Point taken. But the fact remains that many "good" christians not only tolerated or endorsed slavery, but took an active role in it.

Yup. However, they at least had a moral system that told them that they should be wary of the possibility that it was wrong, and encouraged them to admit this once it was clear to them.

But divorce by christians is immoral in the christian church. Living with someone and breaking up is not considered immoral in the secular world. So which is more morally reprehensible? Professing a belief in god and getting married in the eyes of god (to have sex because it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage)and then getting divorced. OR living with someone to test the water and then leaving without have made a commitment in front of god and family, vowing to love and honor one another until death???

That's a very good question, and I'm not particularly sure of the answer. I think the real problem may well be the assumption that sex is a good way to "test the waters" of a relationship; this social norm leads people to be likely to want to consumate a relationship before they're really sure of the rest of it. I have no good solutions, but I think that may be the problem.

The point is, divorce rate in and of itself doesn't tell us much about comparative morality; we need to look deeper.

Gunny · May 21, 2002

Praise be to God, E-Beth for as you say, so says God's Word, He shall not be mocked on judgment day. As King David stated, Forever thy word is settled in heaven.

In Christ
James

Brimshack · May 21, 2002

It is easy enough to recite slander against those of us who sincerely believe that America is not now, and never was intended to be, a Christian state; but that is no substitute for a reasoned argument.

seebs · May 22, 2002

Originally posted by Brimshack
It is easy enough to recite slander against those of us who sincerely believe that America is not now, and never was intended to be, a Christian state; but that is no substitute for a reasoned argument.

Maybe you should post this in the "Storyline - the argument" thread.

crazyfingers · May 22, 2002

Originally posted by Neo

George Washington was a Deist.

Yes GW was a Christian.

If course I can find any number of pithy statements that refute Gw's opinion. An assertion is only an assertion until there is evidence to back it up.

Neo · May 22, 2002

Originally posted by crazyfingers

Yes GW was a Christian.

If course I can find any number of pithy statements that refute Gw's opinion. An assertion is only an assertion until there is evidence to back it up.

I posted links to webpages that prove GW was a deist, but I guess you just missed that.

crazyfingers · May 22, 2002

Originally posted by Neo

I posted links to webpages that prove GW was a deist, but I guess you just missed that.

Hi NEO, I was on a secular site just last night that showed GW at a Christian. I'll try to post if for you if I can find it again but I'll be out of town for a few days.

Regardless, there were certainly christians and deists among the founders. But it seems pretty clear that regardless, the majority at least wanted religion and state separate otherwise we wouldn't have the 1st amendment or Art 6 sec 3.

That famous Jefferson letter to the Baptists was actually a letter agreeing with them. I believe that Baptists at the time were strongly for C-S Sep. I wish it was as true today.

Brimshack · May 22, 2002

Something tells me George Washington wasn't particularly focused on the grand cosmological questions of the day. His stance might have been rather equivocal, which is another reason to take online sources on this subject with a grain of salt.

BTW: Seebs, I think the point above is one of the many themes which is coming out quite nicely in that little parody. Here at any rate I was responding to the charge that those who take the non-establishment clause seriously are socialists bent on some conspiratorial agenda. I take this to be an insult rather than an argument.

Ray K · May 22, 2002

Originally posted by seebs

Yup. However, they at least had a moral system that told them that they should be wary of the possibility that it was wrong, and encouraged them to admit this once it was clear to them.

Right. And that is why the Bible prescribes how slaves are to be treated by their masters -- so that Christians will know to "be wary of the possibility that it was wrong"? Why not just have a commandment that says "Thou shalt not own another person". But no, we get three separate commandments telling us who to worship, when to worship and how to worship. Even if we keep those three, an 11th commandment prohibiting slavery seems to be a reasonable expectation.

"All men are created equal" is a notion born of the 18th-century philosophical movement known as the Enlightenment, not Christian theology. I think that 1700 years of slavery-compliant Christianity settles that debate.

solo66 man · May 27, 2002

Hmmm, this reminds me of a thread I was in just last night.

budoka · Aug 5, 2002

"I have not the parson's comfortable doctrine that every good action has its reward, and every sin is forgiven. My whole religion is this: do every duty, and expect no reward for it, either here or hereafter."

Bertrand Russell

Where do other people get moral systems?

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