Where are the miracles???

70x7 said:

wow. ok.

So you are saying that CHRISTIANS created sin?

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St Paul invented the concept of original sin ... for that alone he stands out as one of the great malefactors of humanity.

Andreusz said:

St Paul invented the concept of original sin ... for that alone he stands out as one of the great malefactors of humanity.

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So before St Paul there was no such thing as sin? And to this day, wrongdoing is only a concept?

70x7 said:

So before St Paul there was no such thing as sin? And to this day, wrongdoing is only a concept?

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ORIGINAL SIN. You're mixing the two.

Sin, in the OT sense, is ritual impurity, which was from going against, or not acting in accordance with the law, which was mostly social controls of one type or another.

selfinflikted said:

Don't be silly. You do not get your moral values from the bible any more than the next guy. You have a preconcieved set of morals, and you pick and choose from the bible those that already match your own.

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LOL, maybe at one time I had the attitude of "anything goes" but not now. You are right in saying my morals are "preconcieved" in the fact that the Bible tells you have to live!!! I do have a moral standard which has been..yep, preconcieved.
As far as what I pick and choose, how would you know that? Despite are differences here, I dont possibly see how you can be a judge of character on ANYONE, yet alone myself.

selfinflikted said:

And what will you do when this time never comes? It's been more than 2k years. How long must we wait for this sort of "proof"?

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The better question is what will YOU do if it does come?


"“Either Christianity is true or it's false. If you bet that it's true, and you believe in God and submit to Him, then if it IS true, you've gained God, heaven, and everything else. If it's false, you've lost nothing, but you've had a good life marked by peace and the illusion that ultimately, everything makes sense. If you bet that Christianity is not true, and it's false, you've lost nothing. But if you bet that it's false, and it turns out to be true, you've lost everything"

Garyzenuf said:

Yes it is...

With proof you would not need faith, so?
No it would just let more people believe in him, isn't that what he wants. No?

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God wants truth more or less; if a teacher who will punish you if you do not answer correctly and if you do, you get a reward, how will you answer?

It is a lot like your parents letting you have your freedom after a time... They want to raise you with good morals and see you practice them; or they want you to learn on your own what the world is and make your own decision.

If we all had full knowledge of Christ with total proof, this would be a menial exercise we would not truly learn from.

selfinflikted said:

Don't be silly. You do not get your moral values from the bible any more than the next guy. You have a preconcieved set of morals, and you pick and choose from the bible those that already match your own.

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People here are probably more serious about their Christianity than the average Joe. You should give them some credit and not make these sorts of derogatory assumptions.

The only one who is a hypocrite here is me.

And what will you do when this time never comes? It's been more than 2k years. How long must we wait for this sort of "proof"?

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There will not be proof for the likes of the non-believer until it is too late for them and they will live with the shame of their sins.

70x7 said:

LOL, maybe at one time I had the attitude of "anything goes" but not now. You are right in saying my morals are "preconcieved" in the fact that the Bible tells you have to live!!! I do have a moral standard which has been..yep, preconcieved.
As far as what I pick and choose, how would you know that? Despite are differences here, I dont possibly see how you can be a judge of character on ANYONE, yet alone myself.

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I can judge this, because I know it's true. There are tons of things "god" commands man to do in the bible that people just don't do anymore for obvious reasons. When's the last time you participated in a good stoning? Haven't ever? Thought not.

70x7 said:

The better question is what will YOU do if it does come?

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Nothing. It will never happen.

70x7 said:

"“Either Christianity is true or it's false. If you bet that it's true, and you believe in God and submit to Him, then if it IS true, you've gained God, heaven, and everything else. If it's false, you've lost nothing, but you've had a good life marked by peace and the illusion that ultimately, everything makes sense. If you bet that Christianity is not true, and it's false, you've lost nothing. But if you bet that it's false, and it turns out to be true, you've lost everything"

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I'm familiar with Pascal's Wager, thanks.

jmverville said:

People here are probably more serious about their Christianity than the average Joe. You should give them some credit and not make these sorts of derogatory assumptions.
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It's not an assumption at all. See my above post.

I can judge this, because I know it's true. There are tons of things "god" commands man to do in the bible that people just don't do anymore for obvious reasons. When's the last time you participated in a good stoning? Haven't ever? Thought not.

Romans 7
The Law and Sin


7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Matthew 5
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law


17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


God came to us in fulfillment of the law and now we live out of his grace until his second coming. The law wasn't working in judgment before Jesus. Neither is it working in our society regulate our sin out of his grace. God came to change our hearts. On the account everyone is able to sin in free will or in ignorance ,but the ability in our world to inventively to make evil exists

allhart said:

I can judge this, because I know it's true. There are tons of things "god" commands man to do in the bible that people just don't do anymore for obvious reasons. When's the last time you participated in a good stoning? Haven't ever? Thought not.

God came to us in fulfillment of the law and now we live out of his grace until his second coming. The law wasn't working in judgment before Jesus. Neither is it working in our society regulate our sin out of his grace. God came to change our hearts. On the account everyone is able to sin in free will or in ignorance ,but the ability in our world to inventively to make evil exists

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I'm not sure how a law is "fulfilled" gramatically. Any law against murder or theft cannot be "fulfilled," except in the sense of using "fulfillment" to mean to "bring to an end." But from this perspective, the fulfillment of the law by Jesus still seems a bit vague. Most of the commandments in the Hebrew Scriptures were not merely "ceremonial", they dealt with issues of morality as well. And you don't see any Jewish theologians referring to the coming of the messiah in this sense either.

I suppose it's a purely Christian view, which makes sense.

70x7 said:

wow. ok.

So you are saying that CHRISTIANS created sin?

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Yes. (Original sin I meant, may have caused some of the confusion, sorry).

Let me ask you then, what is right and wrong? I mean, you obviously are not believing the christian faith, so where do you pull your basis from as far as standards?

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Same place as you and everyone else; upbringing, society, and probably a dash of evolutionary recipricule(sp) alturism.

Not only yourself, but obviously quite a few responders here have missed the point of the post.
I was saying that the Book of Revelation says that even the physical apperance of Jesus Himself will not turn every mans heart into accepting Him, even though they will know He is the Son of God.

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I think Revelations is a bunch of torture induced blather, IMO. So I don't believe what it says concerning anything let alone questions in the REAL world. As for people seeing "called" miracles and believing, I agree, some people will probably never believe. I'm saying I don't now believe, but theres been enough unexplained things happen in my life that a bona-fided miracle could very well make a believer out of me.

*

It's so comforting to believe in divinity, prophecy, destiny, fate, and miracles. It's really a novel thought to live in a world where we can fulfill destinies, alter fate, and witness miracles, isn't it?

Rubbish, in my opinion. I can't even bring myself to believe in luck or karma.

I put my faith into personal responsibility. I have no destiny but the one I make for myself. I don't have streaks of good or bad luck. Things just happen, and we can only do what is within our own power to do. What goes around does not always come around.

Miracles? Really? Why is God interested in putting a blobby image of the Renaissance depiction of Jesus on a piece of toast? Get real.

The only miracles that exist are the ones that you work. Unclasp your hands and do something with them.
The only destiny that exists is the one you forge for yourself amidst the chaos of the universe.
The only goals we should have are the ones that we have made for ourselves, not the ones that we think have been made for us.

The day that I realized that my 'fate' is in my own hands was the best day of my life. Yeah, I'm on my own in this life, but am I really? I have my friends. I have my family. They're there for me and I'm there for them. Even without them, I accept responsibility for my own actions, my own thoughts, and my own life and I know that I have to go it alone at many points in my life, but that's part of life.

I don't blame Satan, I don't thank God, I am a product of my own will. And, for that, I truly do consider myself more free and more capable than the person who feels they must answer to a deity or fear a greater evil than themselves.

And, I feel it's time to come to terms with it and start accepting responsibility for things that we do and come to terms with the fact that things happen that are beyond our control. Some of the things might be convenient and some of the things might be devastating. **** just happens, but that's why we have one another- to help one another.

*2 cents deposited*

Blah, sorry for the rant, but I couldn't think of a better time to say it.

(half of) My whole point is that we do not see miracles happen today because they've never happened. Think of how communication existed in that time period. Everything was basically spread by word of mouth or handwritten. When things are passed by word of mouth- words change- stories change. That's how urban legends are born. Ever played telephone? When things were finally written down, imagine the amount of exaggeration that was probably a part of the story at that point.

Anyhow, sorry for the long and probably irrelevant post.