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When Will Christ Return?

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What year range do you believe Jesus Christ will return in?

  • 2010 - 2020

  • 2020 - 2030

  • 2030 - 2040

  • Beyond 2040

  • I don't know

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RisingSpirit

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God, then, came 5+ times in the Old Testament. He can return anytime He likes.
 
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eclipsenow said in post 860:

If it's clear, and warns us, when it is going to happen?
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The future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 could begin in our lifetime. For Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD re-establishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Ps. 90:10), or a hundred and twenty years (Gen. 6:3).

This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, sixty-nine, or seventy-nine, or a hundred and nineteen years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last seven years (Dan. 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (for example, 2020) earlier than 2021.

eclipsenow said in post 860:

I want a summary of what you think Revelation is REALLY warning us about.
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From Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and some other verses elsewhere, we can derive the following summary of the main events of the future tribulation:

It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8).

Then a huge volcanic eruption will occur (Revelation 6:12-14).

Then an island volcano will erupt and collapse into the sea (Revelation 8:8-9).

Then a comet will strike the earth, in a region containing a third of the world's fresh water (Revelation 8:10-11).

Then a cavern deep underground will open up, and weird locust-like beings will swarm up from it and torment mankind with horribly painful stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-11).

Then two hundred million weird horse-like beings will kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19).

Sometime before this, a third Jewish temple will have been built in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:1).

Then various things will happen during a 3.5-year period:

Jerusalem will be occupied by enemy forces (Revelation 11:2b, Luke 21:24), and the abomination of desolation will be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

Two witnesses of God will prophesy in Jerusalem and bring amazing, miraculous plagues on the world (Revelation 11:3-12).

Satan (the dragon) will give power to an individual man (one aspect of the beast), commonly called the Antichrist, to take hegemony over the entire earth, and to be worshipped by it along with Satan, and to kill Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:4-10). At least one time, the Antichrist will also sit in the Jewish temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

There will also be a second man, called the False Prophet, who will perform amazing miracles, by which the people of the world will be deceived into receiving a mark of the first man's name or name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead, and into worshipping a speaking image of the first man (Revelation 13:11-18, Revelation 19:20).

Right after the 3.5-year period:

A horrible sore will spring up on all those who received the mark and worshipped the image (Revelation 16:2).

Then the ocean will be turned into the blood of a dead man (Revelation 16:3).

Then all surface fresh-water sources will be turned into blood (Revelation 16:4-6).

Then a solar flare will strike the earth (Revelation 16:8).

Then, for a time, no light will reach the surface of the earth (Revelation 16:10).

Then the Euphrates will dry up, and the armies of the earth will gather at Armageddon (a place in northern Israel) in an attempt to fight YHWH (Revelation 16:12-16).

Then all the cities of the earth will be destroyed by fire, and earthquake, and hundred-pound hailstones (Revelation 16:18-21, Revelation 17:16).

Then Jesus will return, and he will resurrect, rapture, judge, and marry the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:4, Revelation 19:7), before he defeats the armies of the world gathered (by that time at Jerusalem) against YHWH (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14).

eclipsenow said in post 860:

So the bible warns us that Christians should....
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Christians should be prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and they should be prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), so they won't commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
 
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eclipsenow

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So, according to you, the book of Revelation is a future timetable that spells out all of these completely irrelevant details that are utterly pointless and meaningless to the previous 2000 years of Christian history, just so that we learn.... not to fear those who can only harm the body, not the soul? What is so special about this generation that they couldn't get by on that message from OTHER prominent passages in the New Testament? Earlier Christians have had to endure chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter of boring, irrelevant details about some future generation's pain and suffering when THEY were watching their kids get sawn in half or buried alive? You've just turned John into a heartless monster. "You think you've got it bad, we'll you AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET! The LAST generation of Christians alive are going to have it SO bad that I have to write 12 chapters of boring details JUST so they can remember not to 'get blindsided' by how bad it is. So stop your whining about your kid getting sawn in half or buried alive or raped in front of your eyes because of your faith in Christ, because that LAST generation is going to have it REAL tough, get it!?"

That's what you would have John say. That's the pastoral implications of your unthinking futurism: Revelation just says 'suck it up Princess' to suffering Christians because the future's going to get far, far worse, so toughen up Princess!

You simply don't know how to read the non-literal, SYMBOLIC language of Revelation. It's a sermon to ALL generations of Christians, as John says everyone who reads it must obey it. (See Chapter 1). It's about the gospel to suffering Christians of John's generation, who, like him, were ALREADY in the tribulation! (See Chapter 1).

John writes a letter to the 7 churches which means ALL the churches, even though he was writing to 7 specific churches in the letter. We are to ALL learn from John's 7 letters. It's obvious. 7 means God's perfection, God's perfect control and plan and number. The world was made in 7 days, and Jesus is later presented as having 7 horns and 7 eyes (meaning God's perfect power and knowledge). Dr Paul Barnett, a lifetime professional historian and lecturer at Macquarie University and Bible commentator and Anglican Bishop who ran historical tours of the bible lands, says there were MORE than 7 churches in Roman Asia at the time. He knows. You don't, but he does. I trust him. No questions you ask make the fact that Paul Barnett explained this just go away. So even the number of churches chosen shows symbolism. THEN there's the fact that it contains a chiastic structure. The first and last churches are in most danger, the 2nd and 2nd last churches are praised, and the middling churches are middling. That's chiastic. Look it up. It's a literary form you need to get your head around.

All in all we see symbolism upon chiastic structure upon symbolism in the first few chapters which tells us this is Apocalyptic Symbolism and is a sermon to ALL Christians in ALL ages. I've debated you on the literary structure of Revelation for about a year now, and you've contradicted yourself too many times to count. You just don't understand literary forms and how to recognise them. One minute you're saying to read Revelation literally, but every time I point out how ridiculous that is you make it MORE ridiculous by making this 'literal' book all about an Android Image of the AntiChrist as if C3PO is going to be dictating to us. Or you just go all inconsistent and admit, "Oh of course that's only a symbol!" You're confused and self-contradictory. You miss the fact that Revelation is a book of comfort to ALL Christians across ALL ages, not some 'peek a book' from God about some 'special' future generation!

You've robbed the Olivet discourse of it's obvious meaning: when the Romans come, get out of town! Titus DID destroy Israel and the Temple and the Sacrificial System, all of which God's people didn't need any more because JESUS was the perfect sacrifice and remains the perfect High Priest and Temple for all our spiritual needs. Titus DID go in and destroy the temple so that not one stone is left on another, so that 1.1 million Jews were killed, Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews split up as a people. The Olivet discourse HAPPENED. But you cannot separate out the themes.

It's simple, "these things" will occur in "This generation", which is Titus destroying Israel and is:-
1. Predictable
2. Local (they can run to the hills or flee)
3. Avoidable (they can escape it).

But Judgement Day is "on that day" and it is:
1. Unpredictable and sudden (as in the days of Noah)
2. Universal (lightning from the East to the West).
3. Unavoidable, and some will be rescued and the others left behind for universal, worldwide judgement, just as in the flood.

Having misunderstood Jesus in the Olivet discourse, you have robbed Christians today of the predictive power of Jesus speaking to the disciples and just how amazingly these verses WERE fulfilled. You go on and on about the pathetic retaining wall somehow 'not fulfilling' the verse that not one stone would be left on another. My question to you is: did the sacrifice cease? Did God's people, the Jews, get split up? Did the temple itself get destroyed (as Luke 21 predicts, specifically referring to the TEMPLE building itself). Jesus accurately predicted the Olivet discourse, and it all happened in AD70. But you've robbed the church of that, and made it all about us. You've robbed 2000 years of Christians being able to claim Revelation as a book to them and about their suffering, an amazingly powerful symbolic sermon with enormous encouragement AND warnings, and you've turned Revelation into a Current Affair Navel Gazing exercise where our attention is turned off Jesus onto arguing with each other over the 'eschatological meaning' of Current Affairs news. And so we end up with people like Harold Camping making false predictions, and silly documentary's like "The Power Behind the New World Order" predicting stuff about March 22, 2013. None of them will ever get it right because Revelation isn't a boring 'train timetable of the future': it's a sermon to all Christians across all time. Don't give in to wealth and pleasure and worldly security: God is worth more. Don't give in to 'beast governments' that arise and persecute Christians, like Rome and Communist Russia and China and Iran: God is worth more. There is far, far more detail than all that, but I don't have the time to spell it all out. John's fantastic sermons are spelt out in 2 cheap commentaries below.


My Commentaries:
A great SHORT commentary on Revelation that helps unpack it quickly is also quite cheap. It's "Revelation Unwrapped" by John Richardson, and takes a mostly Reformed Amil Symbolic approach to the obvious and even more obscure Old Testament symbols used by John.

Try the Book Depository: under $6 and worldwide postage is FREE!
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429

Another great commentary that is also symbolist but also has a slightly more Historical emphasis is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
Apocalypse Now and Then: Reading Revelation Today : Paperback : Paul Barnett : 9781875861415
 
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Regarding the book of Revelation being a "future" timetable, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.


Regarding the book of Revelation being a future "timetable", Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are a timetable, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials/bowls (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials/bowls will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial/bowl (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.


Regarding "all of these completely irrelevant details that are utterly pointless and meaningless to the previous 2000 years of Christian history", just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (for all scripture is profitable: 2 Timothy 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

Also, Christians do not have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (for example, Genesis chapters 1-11) or future literal events (for example, Revelation chapters 6 to 18) for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16).


Regarding "just so that we learn.... not to fear those who can only harm the body, not the soul?", no, not just that, but so that we learn what to expect to happen, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so we can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).


Futurism does not deny that many Christians in the past/present have gone/are going through terrible tribulations. But neither does futurism deny the fact that no past or present tribulation in the general sense (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Romans 5:3, Ephesians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:4) has ever fulfilled the highly-detailed and chronological events of the specific tribulation described in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. Also, while Mt. 24:21 refers to the future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Mt. 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early church (e.g. Rev. 2:10). For some people in the church will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Rev. 12:6,14-16).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

You simply don't know how to read the non-literal, SYMBOLIC language of Revelation.
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How has it been shown to be symbolic?

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (for example, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (for example, Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (for example, Daniel 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

eclipsenow said in post 864:

It's a sermon to ALL generations of Christians, as John says everyone who reads it must obey it. (See Chapter 1).
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Are you referring to the verse which says:

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand" (Revelation 1:3)?

If so, the original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Revelation 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (John 14:15). But almost all of Revelation does not consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Revelation 1:1,3, Revelation 22:7) which are not things to be "obeyed". For example, how would believers "obey" the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Revelation 9:3-11)? Instead, "tereo"/"keep" in Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:7 is used in the sense of holding onto something precious (John 12:7, John 2:10b, John 17:11,12,15, Ephesians 4:3) instead of casting it away as worthless. We are to "keep"/hold onto all of Revelation as being the precious truth, from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), just as we are to "keep"/hold onto Christian faith itself (2 Timothy 4:7b), even during the worst time for the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

It's about the gospel to suffering Christians of John's generation, who, like him, were ALREADY in the tribulation! (See Chapter 1).
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Are you referring to the verse which says:

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:9)?

If so, "the" tribulation in Revelation 1:9 (in the original Greek) is the general tribulation which the church has experienced from its beginning (Acts 14:22, John 16:33). There is also the still-unfulfilled, unprecedented tribulation (Matthew 24:21-22) of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, which the church will experience in the future, preceding Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, the various trials individual Christians undergo, including currently, can be referred to as (plural) "tribulations" (Romans 5:3, Ephesians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:4).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

7 means God's perfection, God's perfect control and plan and number. The world was made in 7 days, and Jesus is later presented as having 7 horns and 7 eyes (meaning God's perfect power and knowledge).
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In Revelation 5:6, while the horns and eyes are symbolic, they can represent literal things, so that the number seven can refer literally to seven things. The seven horns of the Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent Jesus holding literally seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). These seven positions of power could be, for example, Jesus' power as the Son of God (Revelation 2:18), his power as the Word of God (Revelation 19:13), his power as the King of kings (Revelation 19:16), his power as the Lord of lords (Revelation 19:16), his power as High Priest (Hebrews 3:1), his power as the King of Israel (John 12:13), and his power as the Lamb of God (John 1:29).

And Revelation 5:6 tells us what the seven eyes of the Jesus lamb represent: "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth". These can literally be seven Spirits of God, which could be: the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2).


How many more? And in what cities were they located?

eclipsenow said in post 864:

So even the number of churches chosen shows symbolism.
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The seven churches can be literally seven because they can be the only churches in literal Roman "Asia" (what is today Western Turkey) who sent messengers to John on the island of Patmos, which was just off the coast of Roman "Asia".

For the "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

THEN there's the fact that it contains a chiastic structure.
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How has it been shown that something with a chiastic structure must be symbolic?

For example, what would require that a sentence like: "To go forth I dare not, yet I fear to sit still", with the chiastic structure of action-thought-thought-action, would have to be referring to something symbolic?

eclipsenow said in post 864:

The first and last churches are in most danger, the 2nd and 2nd last churches are praised, and the middling churches are middling.
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How has that been shown?

For example, how is the first church addressed in Revelation chapters 2-3, the church in Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-6), necessarily in any more spiritual danger than the fifth church addressed, in Sardis (Revelation 3:1-3)?

Also, the second and the second to last churches addressed aren't the only ones praised. For example, the first church addressed is praised in Revelation 2:2,3.6.

eclipsenow said in post 864:

I've debated you on the literary structure of Revelation for about a year now, and you've contradicted yourself too many times to count.
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How has it been shown that there has ever been any contradiction?

eclipsenow said in post 864:

You just don't understand literary forms and how to recognise them.
Click to expand...

Revelation can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it's not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. And nothing about Revelation's language in itself requires that it can't be almost entirely literal.
 
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It has never been said that Revelation is all about an android image of the Antichrist. What has been said is that the original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist could be referred to in the Greek as being an "eikon" of the Antichrist.

eclipsenow said in post 864:

Or you just go all inconsistent and admit, "Oh of course that's only a symbol!"
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Parts of Revelation are literal and parts are symbolic. For example, parts of Revelation 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the four beasts, the twenty-four elders, Jesus having been slain, the seven Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Revelation 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having seven horns, his having seven eyes).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

You've robbed the Olivet discourse of it's obvious meaning: when the Romans come, get out of town!
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The Olivet discourse wasn't fulfilled when the Romans came against Jerusalem in 70 AD. For just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, so the tribulation events of Mt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lk. 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Lk. 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Rev. 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign. And Jesus' second coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Mt. 24:30-31 (2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur immediately after the future tribulation of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

Titus DID go in and destroy the temple so that not one stone is left on another, so that 1.1 million Jews were killed, Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews split up as a people.
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The end of Herod's temple building (also called the second temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Mt. 24:2, for the stones of the second temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Mt. 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Mt. 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single second temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second temple complex (Mt. 24:1). Indeed, Mt. 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Mt. 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the Dec. 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, Matthew 24:2's "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

It's simple, "these things" will occur in "This generation", which is Titus destroying Israel and is:-
1. Predictable
2. Local (they can run to the hills or flee)
3. Avoidable (they can escape it).
Click to expand...

When Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", it means all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming and gathering together (rapture) of the church immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:15-17), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the tribulation, second coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD re-establishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Ps. 90:10), or a hundred and twenty years (Gen. 6:3).

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Mt. 24:22, Lk. 16:8b, Col. 3:12, 1 Thes. 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Mt. 24:22) until Jesus' second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7 to 20:6).


Mt. 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

My question to you is: did the sacrifice cease?
Click to expand...

Yes, but it will be restarted in our future, before Jesus returns. For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. The third temple will coexist with the church like the second temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The third temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

eclipsenow said in post 864:

Did God's people, the Jews, get split up?
Click to expand...

Yes, but they got together again in 1948 in the modern state of Israel, just as the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 re-establishment of Israel. For Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43), and the Israel that was re-established in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit.

Also, the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was re-established in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed, before Jesus' second coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed back in 70 AD by a Roman army.

eclipsenow said in post 864:

Did the temple itself get destroyed (as Luke 21 predicts, specifically referring to the TEMPLE building itself).
Click to expand...

In Luke 21:5-6, like in Matthew 24:1-2, the original Greek word (hieron, G2411) translated as "temple" can refer to "the entire precincts" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the temple's Wailing Wall.


Futurism considers today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics and technology, in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, and almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, and which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does is consider these things.

For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, and which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak and appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.
 
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eclipsenow

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So, according to you, the book of Revelation is a future timetable that spells out all of these completely irrelevant details that are utterly pointless and meaningless to the previous 2000 years of Christian history, just so that we learn.... not to fear those who can only harm the body, not the soul? What is so special about this generation that they couldn't get by on that message from OTHER prominent passages in the New Testament? Earlier Christians have had to endure chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter of boring, irrelevant details about some future generation's pain and suffering when THEY were watching their kids get sawn in half or buried alive? You've just turned John into a heartless monster. "You think you've got it bad, we'll you AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET! The LAST generation of Christians alive are going to have it SO bad that I have to write 12 chapters of boring details JUST so they can remember not to 'get blindsided' by how bad it is. So stop your whining about your kid getting sawn in half or buried alive or raped in front of your eyes because of your faith in Christ, because that LAST generation is going to have it REAL tough, get it!?"

That's what you would have John say. That's the pastoral implications of your unthinking futurism: Revelation just says 'suck it up Princess' to suffering Christians because the future's going to get far, far worse, so toughen up Princess!

You simply don't know how to read the non-literal, SYMBOLIC language of Revelation. It's a sermon to ALL generations of Christians, as John says everyone who reads it must obey it. (See Chapter 1). It's about the gospel to suffering Christians of John's generation, who, like him, were ALREADY in the tribulation! (See Chapter 1).

John writes a letter to the 7 churches which means ALL the churches, even though he was writing to 7 specific churches in the letter. We are to ALL learn from John's 7 letters. It's obvious. 7 means God's perfection, God's perfect control and plan and number. The world was made in 7 days, and Jesus is later presented as having 7 horns and 7 eyes (meaning God's perfect power and knowledge). Dr Paul Barnett, a lifetime professional historian and lecturer at Macquarie University and Bible commentator and Anglican Bishop who ran historical tours of the bible lands, says there were MORE than 7 churches in Roman Asia at the time. He knows. You don't, but he does. I trust him. No questions you ask make the fact that Paul Barnett explained this just go away. So even the number of churches chosen shows symbolism. THEN there's the fact that it contains a chiastic structure. The first and last churches are in most danger, the 2nd and 2nd last churches are praised, and the middling churches are middling. That's chiastic. Look it up. It's a literary form you need to get your head around.

All in all we see symbolism upon chiastic structure upon symbolism in the first few chapters which tells us this is Apocalyptic Symbolism and is a sermon to ALL Christians in ALL ages. I've debated you on the literary structure of Revelation for about a year now, and you've contradicted yourself too many times to count. You just don't understand literary forms and how to recognise them. One minute you're saying to read Revelation literally, but every time I point out how ridiculous that is you make it MORE ridiculous by making this 'literal' book all about an Android Image of the AntiChrist as if C3PO is going to be dictating to us. Or you just go all inconsistent and admit, "Oh of course that's only a symbol!" You're confused and self-contradictory. You miss the fact that Revelation is a book of comfort to ALL Christians across ALL ages, not some 'peek a book' from God about some 'special' future generation!

You've robbed the Olivet discourse of it's obvious meaning to the disciples: when the Romans come, get out of town! Titus DID destroy Israel in AD70. The temple was destroyed stone by stone, and the Sacrificial System was shut down for good. But God's people didn't need these any more because JESUS was the perfect sacrifice and remains the perfect High Priest and Temple for all our spiritual needs. Titus DID go in and destroy the temple so that not one stone is left on another, so that 1.1 million Jews were killed, Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews split up as a people. The Olivet discourse HAPPENED. But you cannot separate out the themes.

It's simple, "these things" will occur in "This generation", which is Titus destroying Israel and is:-
1. Predictable
2. Local (they can run to the hills or flee)
3. Avoidable (they can escape it).

But Judgement Day is "on that day" and it is:
1. Unpredictable and sudden (as in the days of Noah)
2. Universal (lightning from the East to the West).
3. Unavoidable, and some will be rescued and the others left behind for universal, worldwide judgement, just as in the flood.

Having misunderstood Jesus in the Olivet discourse, you have robbed Christians today of the predictive power of Jesus speaking to the disciples and just how amazingly these verses WERE fulfilled. You go on and on about the pathetic retaining wall somehow 'not fulfilling' the verse that not one stone would be left on another. My question to you is: did the sacrifice cease? Did God's people, the Jews, get split up? Did the temple itself get destroyed (as Luke 21 predicts, specifically referring to the TEMPLE building itself). Jesus accurately predicted the Olivet discourse, and it all happened in AD70. But you've robbed the church of that, and made it all about us. You've robbed 2000 years of Christians being able to claim Revelation as a book to them and about their suffering, an amazingly powerful symbolic sermon with enormous encouragement AND warnings, and you've turned Revelation into a Current Affair Navel Gazing exercise where our attention is turned off Jesus onto arguing with each other over the 'eschatological meaning' of Current Affairs news. And so we end up with people like Harold Camping making false predictions, and silly documentary's like "The Power Behind the New World Order" predicting stuff about March 22, 2013. None of them will ever get it right because Revelation isn't a boring 'train timetable of the future': it's a sermon to all Christians across all time. Don't give in to wealth and pleasure and worldly security: God is worth more. Don't give in to 'beast governments' that arise and persecute Christians, like Rome and Communist Russia and China and Iran: God is worth more. There is far, far more detail than all that, but I don't have the time to spell it all out. John's fantastic sermons are spelt out in 2 cheap commentaries below.


My Commentaries:
A great SHORT commentary on Revelation that helps unpack it quickly is also quite cheap. It's "Revelation Unwrapped" by John Richardson, and takes a mostly Reformed Amil Symbolic approach to the obvious and even more obscure Old Testament symbols used by John.

Try the Book Depository: under $6 and worldwide postage is FREE!
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429

Another great commentary that is also symbolist but also has a slightly more Historical emphasis is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse Now and then". Paul lecturered in Ancient History at Macquarie University as well as being an ordained Bishop of North Sydney. He ran historical tours of the bible lands, and is uniquely qualified to speak of John's historical references in Revelation. Under $15.
Apocalypse Now and Then: Reading Revelation Today : Paperback : Paul Barnett : 9781875861415
 
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ptomwebster

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eclipsenow said:
...the book of Revelation is a future timetable ...
Click to expand...


All Scripture is written on multiple levels and can be understood by students at their level of spiritual maturity. That is why Scripture is called a living book.

 
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eclipsenow

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ptomwebster said:
All Scripture is written on multiple levels and can be understood by students at their level of spiritual maturity. That is why Scripture is called a living book.
Click to expand...

Evidence for this claim? An assertion is not an argument without well thought out and applicable data.
 
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eclipsenow

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It demonstrates truths about being loving, but also who the Good Samaritan really is: Jesus. Many of Jesus parables are eschatological in nature in that they teach that generation about the time they lived in, the time between one Kingdom of God and another, the time when the Word of God walked among them, the time in which sacrifice would end because THE sacrifice was about to be made, the time in which they had one generation to go before the temple was conclusively destroyed with not one stone left on another.

Jesus was the eschatological fulfilment of the law and the ages, all the Prophets promises find their 'Yes' in Jesus.

But as for giving us a crystal ball into specific political developments of the time we live in? Nah. That's just bunk.
 
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eclipsenow

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Bigbluemarble said:
Yes, the good samaritan was Jesus but each character and place in the story represents someone/someplace in an eschatological sense.
Click to expand...
No, it's the gospel and explains that Jesus lays down his life even for his enemies.
 
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Regarding "the temple was conclusively destroyed with not one stone left on another", that isn't the case, for the reasons given in the "Herod's temple" part of post 866.

eclipsenow said in post 871:

Jesus was the eschatological fulfilment of the law and the ages, all the Prophets promises find their 'Yes' in Jesus.
Click to expand...

Regarding "Jesus was the eschatological fulfilment of the law", are you thinking of Matthew 5:17-18? If so, that means that Jesus came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Lk. 24:44-48, e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isa. 53).

With regard to the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, Jesus, as the Christ (Mt. 5:17, Lk. 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, Heb. 12:24, 7:22, 8:6-8), had the divine authority to contradict the letter of those commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Mt. 5:38-44, 19:7-9, Jn. 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5:19-7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Cor. 14:37, 1 Thes. 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Mt. 12:1-8).

Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for he did come to do that, on the Cross (Eph. 2:15-16, Col. 2:14-17, Rom. 7:6, 2 Cor. 3:6-18, Heb. 7:19). Also, Mt. 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for he couldn't possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Lev. 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Num. 5:19-31).

eclipsenow said in post 871:

But as for giving us a crystal ball into specific political developments of the time we live in? Nah.
Click to expand...

Revelation chapters 6-22 refer to specific political developments which will occur in our future.

*******


Your post 867 is a repeat of your post 864, which was addressed in detail in posts 865 and 866.
 
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Can you give us the eschatological application that you see in the Good Samaritan parable?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Bigbluemarble said:
Yes, the good samaritan was Jesus but each character and place in the story represents someone/someplace in an eschatological sense.
Click to expand...

It's a parable that teaches us that we are to love everyone, because everyone is our neighbor.

There is nothing eschatological about it. To read more into it than what is there is to fail to read the parable at all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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eclipsenow

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Bible2 said:
Regarding "the temple was conclusively destroyed with not one stone left on another", that isn't the case, for the reasons given in the "Herod's temple" part of post 866.
Click to expand...
Do you really think I'm still actually discussing this with you?


Your post 867 is a repeat of your post 864, which was addressed in detail in posts 865 and 866.
Click to expand...
You noticed that did you? Now you know what it's like to try and have a conversation with you.

No, my post 867 was not addressed in detail because you use the same tired old arguments I've addressed a million* times before.

Well, not actually a million, because I'm using that number figuratively, in much the same way Jews used the number 1000. Not that you'll accept a single thing I'm saying because "Revelation is almost entirely Literal". Just repeat that to yourself 3 times and click those ruby slippers together Dorothy, because there are also 7 Holy Spirits and Jesus has 7 horns and 7 eyes and John wrote to the 7 churches but according to you the 7 churchs are LITERAL, and NO, the Seven Holy Spirits are LITERAL! Oh, but John uses the 7 horns symbolically and the 7 eyes symbolically. But everything else is LITERAL!

Yeah, well every time you write I'm just all... ... because YOU'RE obviously SO CONSISTENT in everything you write. One minute the 7 in Revelation is literal, the next it's symbolic. Are you going to make up your mind? Now, my guess is you'll just copy and paste... where is it? Ah, here it is, repeated as usual. Choc full of verses about the bible but that don't ACTUALLY justify reading symbolic literature poorly, and don't ACTUALLY have much bearing on Revelation at all!

Blah blah blah, on and on you go, quoting verse after irrelevant verse to make yourself feel better. Except there's just one problem. Well, 2 actually.

1. These verses don't prove a literal reading of Revelation is required.
2. These verses are mostly off the topic, no matter how many times you repeat them to make yourself feel better.

Now, back to what it is like having a conversation with you.
It goes like this.
I say it isn't A it's B.
You say it isn't B because of C.
I say it isn't C it's D.
You say it isn't D because it's E.
I say it' isn't E because of F.
You say it isn't F because of it being A, and even though I already disproved A, you just go back into asserting that mode. NOT PROVING IT, not once, just asserting it again and again and again. Full of verses to make it appear biblical, but it's not. They're often not even on the subject we're discussing.

For instance, you can't cope with the HISTORICAL FACT that there were more churches in Asia Minor than John actually addressed to. So what do you do? Accept the statement from Dr Paul Barnett who was once my local Bishop and the history lecturer at Macquarie University? No! You just ask a bunch of sulky questions to attempt to cast doubt on the facts of the case and the integrity of this man. In other words, you act like you're the authority and have the right to question someone of his calibre. You think a few petty little questions just makes John's figurative use of the number 7 just go away? That's la la land. That's Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, except you do NOT have Ruby Slippers. Just repeating your theories 3 times does NOT make them true. Are you getting that yet?

So if you see me repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating the same posts over and over and over again, you know what I'm saying. I'm sick of the way you avoid the pertinent points and just keep shuffling through your stale doctrines and heresies about 7 Holy Spirits.

But aside from all the frustration of talking with someone with as much Asperger's as you obviously have, I'm actually quite worried for you. There are NOT 7 Holy Spirits. That's actually distorting the nature of God. Whatever other whacky stuff you have to say about Android AntiChrists, etc, pales into comparison. 7 Holy Spirits is heresy.
 
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eclipsenow

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2 Denarii = two days wages? I'm assuming that you're going to quote Peter's 'day = 1000 years' routine to pad this out to 2000 years? But what about 2 millennia in 2 days? When do we zoom in on time, and see days that seem to take millennia? Futurists only want to read that verse in one direction, which is any particular 'days' they want bloated out to millennia to be 2 millennia, the 2000 years of our history. They never go back the other way. They never see 2 days stretching out to become eternal, millennial days, with God having enough 'time' to listen to each individual prayer as if we were the only person on the planet because He can move in the infinite moment.

That's what that verse is really saying: that God is outside time, and does what he wants. 1000 is NOT literal in the bible! It's like us saying a 'bajillion!" "A day is like a bajilliion years, and a bajillion years like a day!"
 
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Strong in Him

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Really?
What has the good Samaritan got to do with Jesus' return??

Parables may speak to us all in different ways, and they may have more than one application, but there is such a thing as reading into Scripture; seeing and teaching things that aren't there. It is also important that we read Scripture in context - and the context for this particular parable was the question, "who is my neighbour"?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Bingo.

It's the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. There's nothing in the text to suggest there's some hidden code imbedded that if you look long and hard enough you'll be able to see it. It reminds me of those old stereogram images where you had to stare for a long time and change your focus to see what the image was. Only in this case, it's taking a simple picture of a horse and then saying if you stare long enough it'll become a potato.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Strong in Him

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Thank you. That's kind of what I thought, but you put it far better than I could.
 
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