When does life begin?

morningstar2651 · Jul 30, 2009

I'm going to present you with a complicated situation related to abortion and the point that life begins...and I'm looking for a few answers.

Alice and Bob are a happily married couple and have decided to have a baby. They have sex and the sperm successfully combines its DNA with the egg's and a zygote is formed. The fetus develops properly except for one problem -- Anencephaly -- the fetus never develops a brain. The fetus will not survive outside the mother's womb. This happens in 1 in 1,000 births.

When did this life begin? When did this life end? When is it okay to remove this fetus from the womb?

The Nihilist · Jul 30, 2009

It was never alive except in the meanest sense? I mean, that's not even Terri Schiavo alive. (Many of you may remember Terri Schiavo as that braindead woman who made you look ridiculously stupid)

Washington · Jul 30, 2009

morningstar2651 said:
I'm going to present you with a complicated situation related to abortion and the point that life begins...and I'm looking for a few answers.

Alice and Bob are a happily married couple and have decided to have a baby. They have sex and the sperm successfully combines its DNA with the egg's and a zygote is formed. The fetus develops properly except for one problem -- Anencephaly -- the fetus never develops a brain. The fetus will not survive outside the mother's womb. This happens in 1 in 1,000 births.

When did this life begin? When did this life end? When is it okay to remove this fetus from the womb?

How are you defining life? Just fill in the following.

The definition of Life is: ______________________________________________________ .

nolongerhome · Jul 30, 2009

morningstar2651 said:
I'm going to present you with a complicated situation related to abortion and the point that life begins...and I'm looking for a few answers.

Alice and Bob are a happily married couple and have decided to have a baby. They have sex and the sperm successfully combines its DNA with the egg's and a zygote is formed. The fetus develops properly except for one problem -- Anencephaly -- the fetus never develops a brain. The fetus will not survive outside the mother's womb. This happens in 1 in 1,000 births.

When did this life begin? When did this life end? When is it okay to remove this fetus from the womb?

I would say its life never started, so it therefore never ended, and should be removed from the womb as soon as possible.

morningstar2651 · Jul 30, 2009

The cells are alive. They are as alive as the sperm and the egg that made it, or the blood cells that flow through my body, and they are growing and dividing.

The fetus is not viable. It will never develop a brain or a consciousness. It will never be a person or have a personality. It can not live.

The anencephalic fetus should be excised from the mother's womb ASAP.

nolongerhome · Jul 31, 2009

morningstar2651 said:
The cells are alive. They are as alive as the sperm and the egg that made it, or the blood cells that flow through my body, and they are growing and dividing.

The fetus is not viable. It will never develop a brain or a consciousness. It will never be a person or have a personality. It can not live.

The anencephalic fetus should be excised from the mother's womb ASAP.

It is "alive" to the extent any other clump of parasitic cells in the body are alive, but does that mean that it has started "life"?

I think there is some sort of distinction here, and it does have to do with consciousness (or at the very least the potential for consciousness).

Fenny the Fox · Jul 31, 2009

Well, is it alive? Yes. Definitely.

But it is not sentient. It has no propensity for thought or conscience, so it is not "a life", so to speak.

So, if there is any potential for harm to the mother, it should be removed. Then again, it is fairly likely to be aborted naturally by the mother's body at that stage. (Brain begins development as early as 3 weeks)

sk8Joyful · Jul 31, 2009

morningstar2651 said:
I'm looking for a few answers.
When did this life begin?

All human-life, begins the moment God creates its soul, before its mortal-conception.

morningstar2651 · Jul 31, 2009

Fenny the Fox said:
Well, is it alive? Yes. Definitely.

But it is not sentient. It has no propensity for thought or conscience, so it is not "a life", so to speak.

So, if there is any potential for harm to the mother, it should be removed. Then again, it is fairly likely to be aborted naturally by the mother's body at that stage. (Brain begins development as early as 3 weeks)

They can actually be carried to full term and may even survive a short while outside the womb.

Anencephaly Information Page: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)

sk8Joyful said:
All human-life, begins the moment God creates its soul, before its mortal-conception.

How long before conception does God create souls?

Fenny the Fox · Jul 31, 2009

morningstar2651 said:
They can actually be carried to full term and may even survive a short while outside the womb.

Anencephaly Information Page: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS

Yes, it can happen. But in comparison to the number of cases in which this is not so, it is a very small number. I said it could likely self-terminate, not that it does or would do so.

But I hold by my answer, regardless of whether the fetus is capable of going to full term. If it is a high risk to the mother, it should be removed.

Washington · Jul 31, 2009

How are you defining life? Just fill in the following.

The definition of Life is: ______________________________________________________ .

Jade Margery · Jul 31, 2009

morningstar2651 said:
When did this life begin?

When it was conceived? Technically the cells are alive, they are growing, that's life.

When did this life end?

When its cells are all dead? Either through natural or artificial means, one way or another, it's gonna happen.

When is it okay to remove this fetus from the womb?

Whenever the mother decides to remove it.

In all but cases of obvious child abuse, I think its best to leave the raising, birthing, and treatment of babies to their parents. Yeah, that includes brain dead babies. Because all the scientific facts, all the missing parts, all the logic and debating in the world will never be able to convince a determined mother that her child is not a living person.

Personally? I would probably abort in that situation. I'm not a person who holds on to hopeless causes; I like to get my pain over with so I can mourn, heal, and move on.

But other people are different. Some mothers would carry the baby to term and love it anyway. I respect that. They are going to have to deal with a lot of pain, and if taking care of a dying child, or just holding it, makes that a little easier to bear, then I'd be the last person on earth to tell them it should be 'excised ASAP'.

Frankly, I think this whole debate is in bad taste. Either you think abortions are wrong or you don't. But regardless of what you think an anencephalic child is, odds are its mother feels and treats it like it's a living person. Out of respect for her if nothing else, we should do the same.

Seriously people. Have you no empathy, no compassion? This is a heartbreaking family matter and you guys are talking about it like it's a science experiment.

jayem · Jul 31, 2009

+ 3 to what Jade posted. It's the mother's choice whether to terminate the pregnancy, or go on to delivery and let nature take its course. (Though 75% of anencephalic babies are stillborn before reaching term.) I define life in the biological sense, so if it's still in utero, it's a living fetus with a fatal congenital anomaly. But I don't consider any fetus a "person", with Constitutional rights, unless and until it reaches 24 weeks of gestation. (And even then, abortion would be permissible for signifcant health reasons.)

ToddNotTodd · Jul 31, 2009

sk8Joyful said:
All human-life, begins the moment God creates its soul, before its mortal-conception.

But when does ensoulment take place? Does your god place souls in zygotes that he knows won't end up implanting? What would the purpose of that be? It's like buying paint for a house that's going to get demolished before you get the chance to paint it.

God could save a step and just create the soul and allow it into heaven (or hell) without putting said soul into fetal tissue that has no chance of being born.

MoonLancer · Jul 31, 2009

sk8Joyful said:
All human-life, begins the moment God creates its soul, before its mortal-conception.

That means human life exists without the body, so killing a person is NOT taking human life because that life existed before the body. An unfortunate side effect of your augment.

MoonLancer · Jul 31, 2009

ToddNotTodd said:
God could save a step and just create the soul and allow it into heaven (or hell) without putting said soul into fetal tissue that has no chance of being born.

from soul to heaven without a body in between would bypass a lot of the silliness. My personal view though is that a soul does not exist. That individuals come to be through experience and time. I do not agree that the soul makes me who i am. I am simply a chain of causal events that has reach point that question is own causality and try's to make an exception to those causes by invadating them with a soul.

ragarth · Jul 31, 2009

'Life' began with the first cells. We are all continuation of the germline originating for the initial inception of life on this planet (unless we discover that panspermia is correct, which I doubt.) and since the most likely contender for an origin of life right now is the RNA World Hypothesis, the beginning of life may have been a gradual development. Ergo The mother is alive, the egg and sperm cells are alive, and the zygote is alive, so it's a continuous line of life without recordable beginning.

Biological life ends when the last cell dies, simple enough. Personally I think human cognition ends when the biochemical reactions in the brain cease or when the brain is sufficiently damaged it can no longer sustain cognition. Even if we develop the technology to restart them, the result would be a new human consciousness with the same memories and personality.

Consciousness is the crux of the issue, however. It's my opinion that something is not human until it has a definable and unique neural pattern. This means that the brain must have unique connections and electrochemical activity must exist. Due to the nature of neural development, babies upon birth all have different structures within their brain and activity within their brain, but as per when during development the construction of the brain diverges between fetus's, I don't know.

Without a brain, the fetus cannot be conscious or cognitive and is therefore not subject to any rights or protections. The mother may choose to do as she wishes with it.

lawtonfogle · Jul 31, 2009

sk8Joyful said:
All human-life, begins the moment God creates its soul, before its mortal-conception.

Maybe God only creates souls for those who will have a chance of actually living. Being God and all, He would know which fetuses that would be.

Washington · Jul 31, 2009

lawtonfogle said:
Maybe God only creates souls for those who will have a chance of actually living. Being God and all, He would know which fetuses that would be.

So why does he let those who have no chance of winding up in heaven have souls? Being God and all, He would know which humans that would be.

Soul Searcher · Jul 31, 2009

For those who like to quote the bible remember the bible says that God breathed in the breath of life and Adam became a living soul, note the living soul is after the breath of life.

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